Timestamps are in UTC.
just popping in to ask if anyone has recommendations for recent microformat-centric podcasts to listen to
SignpostMarv, have you looked at http://microformats.org/wiki/podcasts ?
yus, theres lots, thats why i was asking for recommendations :-P
[[advocacy]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=18531 * Tantek * (-2)
[[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=18532 * WilleRaab * (+0) Fixing invalid reference... (I hope. ;-) )
[[advocacy-email-samples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-email-samples&diff=0&oldid=18533 * Tantek * (+541) added sample email 2
nicely done WilleRaab
ty. :-D
[[kragen-history-of-markup]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=kragen-history-of-markup&diff=0&oldid=18534 * Tantek * (+27)
tantek: is there a lot of discussion on the list, or is IRC the primary place for discussions?
IRC is preferred
check.
the list often gets hard to follow and too noisy
i've been doing my best to iterate on mailing-list guidelines to increase the signal-to-noise ratio on the list, but people keep discovering new ways of being noisy ;)
hahaha... people are such an annoyance. :)
heh. no, they just need guidance. most people have good intentions.
though there are always a few that have neutral or bad intentions.
or don't realize they are causing harm
can't be that common here, though?
no it's not that common in the microformats community, which is why i'm fighting hard to keep it out as much as possible
yeah, that last thing is of course difficult to handle..
most open (source, standards etc.) communities allow far too many "jerks" to hijack conversations and overall lower the tone of conversation
microformats are implemented by geeks. geeks are generally polite and intelligent
btw http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#General_guidelines
SignpostMarv, actually, geeks often lack social skills and are thus often awkward at communication
SignpostMarv: :)
I miss FidoNet. :I
but are often very well intentioned and can be taught
SignpostMarv, btw, if you question yourself and ask yourself if you are part of the problem, then it is highly likely that you are not part of the problem.
introspection/reflection often helps self-correct
The largest problem, I think, is that ppl have different views of what's important in a discussion and also don't communicate in quite the same way, and therefore discussions tend to be very unfocused very soon.
and demonstrating humility (even in a joking manner as you did above :) ) always helps
tantek, doesn't that generally only apply to face-to-face inte- personal skills and less to digital inter-personal skills ?
it applies *more* to f2f interpersonal skills, but certainly still applies to online communication modes as well
That is - the largest problem for humanity is that it can communicate. ,-)
heh
see articles on Aspergers sufferers thriving in online environments
ah, while your here tantek, I was wondering why your resume doesn't seem to stick to any version of hResume
it hasn't been updated since late 2004
i haven't had the time to update it
http://hresume.weblogswork.com/hresumecreator/
SignpostMarv: is that 'creator' able to edit old resumes as well?
old hResume documents ?
yeah.
doesn't appear to be, but an enterprising Greasemonkey guru could fix that
e.g. add a text field, then auto-populate the form
when in doubt, roll your own
mm yeah. That'd be nice.
yeah. ,-)
the advantage to rolling your own would be that you'd be able to have the export feature preserve the imported document's structure
Just thinking of how it'd be easiest to get companies to start using hResume... Having easy-to-use free tools would prabbably be a way.
Uhm. Dunno the name of the kind of companies I have in mind, in English. *sigh* but companies that link unemployed ppl to other companies that are hiring.
damn, my mind is blank too
ah wait
recruitment agencies
(haha, i'm tired (4 in the nnight here) so i�'m probably just thinking stupid things out loud... :)
ah, yeah!
[[hresume-authoring]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-authoring * Tantek * (+1094) drafted
There's been a lot of those, web-based, popping up here in Sweden the last couple of years or so.
well the idea with hResume is that you can host your resume on the webs yourself for auto-discovery purposes
e.g. rather than submitting your resume to lots and lots of sites,
the sites just subscribe to hResume indexing services and let them do all the dirty work
hm, i see. Yeah.
The disadvantage (but now I'm only guessing) would be that companies wish to keep their own records, their own databases etc.
Of course, that's doable anyway.
SignpostMarv, thanks for the creator link, I've drafted hresume-authoring (see above from mfbot) with that link.
succesful adoption of hResume would of course completely obliterate recruitment website business models
tantek, yw
it wouldn't necessarily obliterate them, but rather, encourage them to evolve
model:
and those that adapted would survive
It'd force them to shift focus. That'd be cool... =)
whereas those that didn't, well, not everything survives evolution.
unemployed person uploads resume, business pays to get results
hresume model:
business goes to http://google.com/resume
:P
yes I'm over-generalising a lot, but that's the way things should go
those same sites could decide to aggregate hResumes from the web as well
there are lots of ways to evolve their models
nah, i'd say that the recruitment companies instead have to focus on getting better desciriptions of what's requested from their clients, and to make good matches.
LinkedIn knows this. As does SimplyHired for example.
it's up to them to decide how to best evolve their business models
Instead of, as is now, focus on getting ppl to write their resumes on the companys website.
businesses often don't have the infrastructure to search for and maintaion a database of resumes
i do think hResume actually enables more business models
even if it obsoletes some old ones
an hResume structure is ideal for the common "About" page on an unemployed professional's blog
ok SignpostMarv, I don't have the time to update my resume this second, but I've created a project to do it where I'm jotting down the specific things I need to do to get it done: http://tantek.pbwiki.com/UpdateResume200707
I'll get to it ;)
in the meantime, if you would like to, by all means, add to http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-authoring
tantek: on http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-authoring there's a [hResume-examples] that doesn't exist, but in the section "Related pages" there's a page named "resume-examples" that does exist. Is that supposed to be the same or is there a new page to be maed?
WilleRaab it could be edited to point to the examples in the wild instead
go for it
ok. =)
(As you can tell i'm a bit cautius w the editing right now.... )
until we have some inline examples to create an hresume-examples page directly
it works to link though
WilleRaab: when in doubt, use both the preview and changes buttons :-)
[[hresume-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-authoring&diff=0&oldid=18535 * WilleRaab * (-1) Creating a new hResume - link-change hresume-examples to resume-examples
SignpostMarv: yeah... :-D
... right now microformats is a bit too new for me to comfortably make changes without asking first... =)
I'll probably get over with that, if I stick around. :)
ah i think you meant hresume-examples-in-wild
resume-examples were used as research for the development of hResume
uhm, no, sry for being unspecific.
Ah. :)
they're actually quite different ;)
=)
"example usage of various classes within hResume." <- felt like a description of what the other was 'bout.
*changing*
hrm
i just had a thought
[[hresume-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-authoring&diff=0&oldid=18536 * WilleRaab * (+9) Creating a new hResume - changing the link to hresume-examples-in-wild....
(btw i love the bot...)
Didn't have that on the swedish wikipedia, would've been nice.
tantek: shouldn't hListing be integrated into hResume ?
not necessarily
a person's opening statement about themselves in a resume seems to fit the structure of "selling ones' self"
hResume simply describes a person
hListing describes the semantic of a proposed transaction as it were
http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-extended-examples#Personal_.2F_Match.com
an hResume is not necessarily selling yourself
it could just be a static description for reference purposes
it is if you're seeking employment
the intent of seeking employment is independent of the job history
the intent of seeking employment could be indicated with an hListing in the hResume though, yes ?
you could embed an hListing into the objective statement of an hResume for example
heh. yes. :)
it's like noun (hResume) vs. verb (hListing)
would it make sense to explicitly state in the spec that "if an hListing structure is found within the hResume document where the lister url is identical to the rel="me" url found in the hResume's hCard, then parsers should indicate this person is actively seeking employment" ?
it's an interesting idea - perhaps add it to hresume-brainstorming
for consideration/deliberation
and of course try it out in the wild with your own resume
on a seperate topic, any chance of the microformats wiki supporting OpenID logins ?
SignpostMarv, perhaps add it to the "to-do" list if it isn't already there.
linky ?
/wiki/to-do
and when you do login, please consider adding the public-domain-release to your user page per http://microformats.org/wiki/Category:public_domain_license
thanks much!
bbiab
[[User:SignpostMarv]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:SignpostMarv * SignpostMarv * (+25)
[[hresume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18537 * SignpostMarv * (+40) Possible Extensions - made structure modification to prep for hListing suggestion
well well, bedtime. cu.
toodles
[[hListing]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hListing * SignpostMarv * (+22) added redirect prior to commiting hresume extension suggestion edit
[[hresume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18538 * SignpostMarv * (+1433) Actively Seeking Employment: using [[hListing]] with [[hResume]] to indicate whether a person is actively seeking employment or not.
that was rather more lengthy than I had planned :-P
hello
hello
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18539 * RobManson * (+2682) Added 6 real world example receipt descriptions from my records - says way too much about my spending habits :)
hrm
didn't know there was a receipt microformat
isn't yet
we've just started collecting examples with an aim to build a proposal
cool
feel free to join in ;)
I've got lots of receipts archived
great
i'm just writing up an overview of the general "commerce" space too
from 12 different sites
aiming to map how the existing microformats and receipts, etc all fit together
"12 different sites" is excellent - that's a good cross section
Asda (groceries), CDWOW, Currys (white goods), DVD.co.uk, Insurance, receipt of complaint sent to Financial Services Ombudsman, Prescription Pre-Payment certificate, play.com, restore.com, skype
two of the arcived receipts seem borked
receipt of complain may not really fit into this set of examples - but add it and we can review that in the analysis phase I guess
not sure why i put it in the receipts folder :-P
did it get a good result? ombudsmen usually do ;)
oh yus
if you have any invoices/bills (e.g. before the payment) then please add them too
same for the Telecomms Ombudsman :-3
hrm
re: examples, would an image suffice so i don't have to sanitize the html ?
ooh, this is interesting
you know the bit on a receipt where they say how muych everything cost- items, shipping, tax etc ?
Skype call it an "Order resume"
[[receipt-example-skype-phone]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/receipt-example-skype-phone * SignpostMarv * (+3132)
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18540 * SignpostMarv * (+446) Real-World Examples - added skype phone
there's actually some relatively semantic class names in skype's source doe
[[orphans]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=orphans&diff=0&oldid=18541 * AndyMabbett * (+19) fixed link (please check "what links here" before moving pages)
[[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=18542 * AndyMabbett * (+108) check "what links here" before moving pages
SignpostMarv: sorry was out for a meeting - yeah I think images are fine
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18543 * RobManson * (+39) Added link to wikipedia's Receipt page - some useful distinctions here
;)
http://microformats.org/wiki/receipt-example-skype-phone
one thing i find really odd though
<p><strong>Yourd order has been received....</strong</p> vs <span class="bold">Confirmation of incoming order</span><br>
the order receipt table uses a class of "order-listing"
there's three row classes: row, totals-row and grandtotal-row
so row is purchase items (unit price, qty*unit price & tax) - totals-row is sum of each of those columns and grandtotal-row is the final sum (amount payable) - yeah?
that's pretty close to the structure within the others I entered
dumb question:
hReceipt would use tables right ?
mmm...i don't think that would be a requirement would it?
tables are used for presentation in this context and that's really a css issue - unless you mean something else
tables for data
could do...but should be a requirement should it?
sorry s/should/shouldn't/
okay, hypothetically speaking you could use a div/span or ul/li/span combo, but if the html structure of every real-world example is tabular, should the spec say "use tables" ?
i'd pass that on to the old timers around here 8) - but I would guess that using classes etc. we should be able to handle both seamlessly
for the user-readable data thing, tables vs li/span doesn't matter,
but for machine readable stuffages, there's an explicit relationship between the table cells
with li/span the relationship is only implied
i think the implied structure could be sufficient and based upon examples i've seen, mandating tables would require changes to existing systems
[[commerce-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/commerce-examples * RobManson * (+2591) Created an initial draft of the commerce domain overview
[[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=18544 * Alex * (+333) Add Yours Here -
[[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=18545 * Alex * (+1) Alessandro Martin -
[[receipt-example-skype-phone]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-example-skype-phone&diff=0&oldid=18546 * AndyMabbett * (-931) cleanup
[[User talk:Alex]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex * AndyMabbett * (+72) Welcome!
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18547 * AndyMabbett * (-903) moving to separate page
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18548 * AndyMabbett * (+12) see also
[[receipt]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/receipt * AndyMabbett * (+1242) moved; add use cases
[[User talk:SignpostMarv]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:SignpostMarv * AndyMabbett * (+72) Welcome!
[[geo-extension-elevation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-elevation&diff=0&oldid=18549 * AndyMabbett * (-2) fix formatting
[[geo-extension-elevation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-elevation&diff=0&oldid=18550 * AndyMabbett * (+0) fix formatting
[[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18551 * AndyMabbett * (+145) Post vCard additions - another example
[[geo-extension-elevation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-elevation&diff=0&oldid=18552 * AndyMabbett * (-632) Real-World Examples - moving to own page
[[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18553 * AndyMabbett * (-729) Post vCard additions - moving to conslidate
[[geo-elevation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples&diff=0&oldid=18554 * AndyMabbett * (+1386) moved
[[geo-elevation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples&diff=0&oldid=18555 * AndyMabbett * (+198) preamble
[[geo-elevation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples&diff=0&oldid=18556 * AndyMabbett * (+229) State High Points - add header row for clarity
[[geo-elevation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples&diff=0&oldid=18557 * AndyMabbett * (+163) atribution
[[geo-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18558 * AndyMabbett * (+34) altitude - see geo-extension-elevation
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=18559 * AndyMabbett * (+38) see also
[[vcard-suggestions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=18560 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Elevation - dab
[[vcard-suggestions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=18561 * AndyMabbett * (+96) Note - CalConnect vCard Workshop
[[vcard-suggestions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=18562 * AndyMabbett * (+18) Note - dab
[[audio-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=18563 * ManuSporny * (+346) Mashups, remixes, cut-ups and audio-collages -
[[audio-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=18564 * ManuSporny * (-12) Top Lists -
[[User:RobManson]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RobManson&diff=0&oldid=18565 * RobManson * (+275) Added a simple hCard for myself
[[User:RobManson]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RobManson&diff=0&oldid=18566 * RobManson * (+61) Added our product URL to my hCard
anyone here have any class warfare issues for hCard's on the wiki - e.g. my postal address works fine with operator on my own site but if I paste the exact same code into my User page operator seems to drop the fields :(
[[User talk:RobManson]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:RobManson * AndyMabbett * (+71) Welcome!
it is probably an issue with MediaWiki and certain elements
:(
that's kinda ironic that our wiki fights with uF's
wikipedia has a similar issue with ABBR
is it worth me identifying the exact issue or is that just a waste of my time?
[[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=18567 * AndyMabbett * (+570) update
you should because it might already be a known issue or not?
[[User:RobManson]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RobManson&diff=0&oldid=18568 * RobManson * (+319) Fixed adr issue with MediaWiki adding useless <p/>'s
;) was simpler than I thought
should I document that anywhere in particular?
not sure where would be best
ok...it's logged here anywya
can you paste in what you were trying and what worked? then it is fully documents
I simply ran all spans/divs together on one line so MediWiki didn't add spurious <p/>'s to the markup
previously I had them laid out pretty printer style
hi michael - just replying to your email with a bug report
but also have a question I might ask here - will DOMAttrModified catch an update to a textarea's contents
nambor: Hmm
I honestly don't know.
But a text area contents won't be parsed as DOM nodes.
ah...mmm indeed
that doesn't bode well for editable form based hCards or any other uF that use textareas
they'll always parse using the loaded page source then
which is fine...just potentially confusing user experience
textarea content can only contain strings, not more mark-up
yeah...strings are ok
so what is the confusing user experience of parsing come in?
I'm not sure what you mean. a text area is just string value of a DOM node.
but say you use <textarea class="region"></textarea> for example
When would you have a situation where the user types in and it updates live?
operator will always export that as empty
I guess I'm trying to figure out when that would happen
even if the user updates the content of the textarea
So you're trying to create an action where someone fills out a form and then operator immediately exports something?
we use this type of UI for displaying user records
why wouldn't you just have them fill a form, click submit and generate a page with the microformat?
textarea is the same as SPAN, so it depends on when Operator updates it´s internal DOM
The problem is I can't listen to all DOM node updates. It's bad for performance.
it's a UX design pattern that is reasonably common
I experimented with an way for a web page to send a message to operator to update microformats.
But I removed it
i understand the performance penalty...I'm just trying to understand the limitations
i´m not seeing how this is a common thing?
see http://mobileonlinebusiness.com.au/uf/hCard_form.html for a nasty js workaround I did for form display of an hCard
I picture what he's saying. A lot of navigation of databses with user data is done with that data as entryfields
but discussing it with tantek (and I agree) it would be cleaner to have single fields instead of the hidden values
tantek is looking at extending the parsing rules to include <input type="text" class="..." value="..."/>
i can see a use-case for PASTING into predefined fields, a la, live clipboard
the problem is the dynamic nature of input gives you different results depending on client or server side
yep...but a lot of users will also just type into fields
so i don´t see many people doing this AND relying on a client-side app
we update the vars via ajax
so say a user views a form like my example
then clicks update and essentially the UI stays the same
then tries to export the new record as a vcard
flickr is a good example... after you update the form, it also updates the HTML
sure that's do-able...but not all apps do that
so you are having a default value from the DB in an input instead of span?
[[Template:welcome]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:welcome&diff=0&oldid=18569 * AndyMabbett * (+89) copy edit and add note about using hCards on user pages
[[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcards-on-microformats-wiki * AndyMabbett * (+421)
[[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-on-microformats-wiki&diff=0&oldid=18570 * AndyMabbett * (+11) dab
[[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-on-microformats-wiki&diff=0&oldid=18571 * AndyMabbett * (+5) *...
[[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-on-microformats-wiki&diff=0&oldid=18572 * AndyMabbett * (-11)
[[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-on-microformats-wiki&diff=0&oldid=18573 * AndyMabbett * (+72) descriptions
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18574 * RobManson * (-2) Added external link to example receipt
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18575 * Lastorset * (+158) Receipts - Added example sections that are pending uploads
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18576 * Lastorset * (+44) Google Checkout - there are to be two Google receipts
[[rellicense-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rellicense-issues&diff=0&oldid=18577 * DrErnie * (+190) RFC 4946
[[rellicense-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rellicense-issues&diff=0&oldid=18578 * DrErnie * (+0) Issues -
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