Timestamps are in UTC.
TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social.
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
DerrickPallas are you suggesting implied optimizations for "adr"?
ah drat he left
veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13140 * DerrickPallas * (+125) New Examples -
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
Hello.
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13141 * AndyMabbett * (+68) move last to problem section (* [http://www.alexa.com Alexa Internet] marked up its [http://www.alexa.com/site/company/managers managers' page] with hCard.)
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
[[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=13142 * Phae * (+19) Q: ''Who controls microformats?'' -
Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
mornin'
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
did anyone do an XMDP profile for hCalendar yet?
there's been some work on it. see hcalendar-profile.
yep, got that - but no actual profile as such
right, work towards one, but no finished xmdp yet.
if I get chance this afternoon I'll sketch one out based on what's at hcalendar-profile
any fresh thoughts on profile URIs? like, should I approach DanC about putting this in w3c space?
[[irc-people]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=13143 * Amir * (+38)
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=13144 * Amir * (+8)
[[User:Amir Guindehi]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Amir_Guindehi * Amir * (+252)
[[User:Amir Guindehi]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Amir_Guindehi&diff=0&oldid=13145 * Amir * (+544)
ok, done that, mailing lists...
[[User:Amir]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Amir * Amir * (+40)
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
[[hcalendar-profile]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-profile&diff=0&oldid=13146 * DannyAyers * (+80) first pass at XMDP Profile linked
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
[[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13147 * CharlesRoper * (+653) Response to Pengo and Andy Mabbett -
tantek, I've done a rough hCalendar profile (see mail to list) : http://dannyayers.com/microformats/hcalendar-profile
danja, you should merge that with http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-profile what is there needs to become XMDP
with that as the profile URI?
ew, there's also the matter of putting the referenced profile URIs in the <head>
anyhow gotta take dogs out, laters
does anyone have an hcard example using the "agent" prop?
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
is it supposed to be another hcard?
see hcard-examples
[[x2v-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=x2v-issues&diff=0&oldid=13148 * Brian * (+264) Added issues about XSLT local-name()
ugh, me blind?
ah, cool, thx
looked in the test cases only..
agent and hcard don't have to be on the same node, do they?
s/hcard/the nested vcard/
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
from: http://twitter.com/ChristopheDucamp/statuses/5084603 @Brian and chris : Seb 2.0 could be interested to help on a future french blog which could be based on fr.microformats.org - could you arrange that ?
is there a way or will to create language specific microformats blogs?
[[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13149 * AndyMabbett * (+155) Response to Pengo by Andy Mabbett - furthrr response
[[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=13150 * AndyMabbett * (+76) References - Synonyms
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13151 * AndyMabbett * (+596) Synonym
[[species-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13152 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Synonym= - =
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13153 * AndyMabbett * (+259) Synonym - anther examples
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13154 * AndyMabbett * (+427) Synonyms - more examples
hm, Bryn Mawr is using hCalendar for their Performing arts calendar: http://webtest.brynmawr.edu/calendar/performing_arts.shtml
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13155 * AndyMabbett * (+174) Synonyms - another
[[species-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples&diff=0&oldid=13156 * AndyMabbett * (+4) Synonyms - fmt
redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=13157 * LeaDeGroot * (-6) Examples -
tantek, would you place geo information in the address element?
or put it outside the address element?
do you have a link Ronnos?
well, i'm trying to "upgrade" my current hcard on www.creative-ways.nl
in the green part :)
because it's on every page, the address element seems usefull to me
whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
and i'm wondering if i should put the geo information in or outside the address element
it doesn't really matter
you can put it inside or out
GEO is not part of ADR, so it can go anywhere
but sometimes you are taking the ADR as the human-readable version of a lat/lon
true, thanx brian
briansuda - you can put a geo *inside* iof an adr?
you can put it inside in the HTML, but ADR just ignored the elements
I know you can pair them up by putting them both in an hcard
you can add an ORG/FN inside and ADR too, but ADR doesn't do anything with them
well, there was discussion awhile ago on how to associate information w/ a geo or adr w/o using an hcard or event
like saying "there is a great picnic spot at <span class="geo" ..."
it isn't ascociating anything, just where you can put markup
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
briansuda - right, well, it would be nice to be able to associate
so when you have a geo/adr-reader or aggregator, *what* is the actual location that is pulled out?
agreed, at the moment X2V and Operator are doing some things, but they are not part of the spec, just implementation-by-implementation
what are they using? I haven't seen
I want to do something for Mapufacture
same as X2V, it is looking-up the tree to see if it is in a vCard or iCalendar, then using FN or SUMMARY otherwise just the lat;lon
it isn't perfect, but solves 80/20 nicely
as for a geo/adr spider. I would say that a GEO spider saves the lat/lon and if it is in an ABBR then save the node value.
as for ADR just save the fields it finds
anything more, then it is not an ADR spider, but an hCard/hCal spider
what do you think about just grabbing the content of the parent? so if it's <p> STUFF <geo> more stuff </p>
the text would be the content of the p
well, I'm less interested it in being a geo/adr spider/scraper/aggregator specifically and more interested in it getting 'useful information about a location' :)
i would agree with you, but then we are making requirements outside of the spec
i'd be happy to leave it up to the market to try things out and see what works
well, for one, the spec doesn't want to change, so doesn't seem like it will ;) and second was looking for "works in the real world" solution for an application
there is nothing stopping a spider for getting the basic data and then suplementing it who they like
there might be some false-positives, but that is out-of-scopre of GEO/ADR
right, I was just looking to see if I missed a change, or if there was a suggested solution that others have been using in cases where the actual data doesn't give context
no, there hasn't been anything official
did you see that Google Books are doing something very similar to gutenkart?
hrm, is there a simple blog/news feed for MF *changes*?
mapping placenames in the book to a google map
yeah, i did (blogged it)
maybe that's where i found the link :)
they have *quite* the step-up as they have access to thousands (millions?) of copyright material
that something like Gutenkarte doesn't
heh, I've done that, retold info to someone when I found it out from them ;)
obviously they were interested
in an RSS reader i can't really see the original source!
? really? can't see URL/title/author?
i probably can, but i have a 'web' folder of loads of different feeds ordered by date.
so i never pay attention
well, lack of attn I understand, that's my problem ;)
btw - you coming to Web2.0 expo or OSCON?
no, my next few conferences are: BarCampLondon2, Highland Fling, XTECH07
that's all i know at the moment
are you heading down to SXSW?
brian, what's the status on rel="me self"?
briansuda - don't know yet, probably not at this point
would love to
i'm not sure what the status on rel="me self" is? both are valid HTML rel values
but that is still up to interpretation to what it actually means
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
hm, the location -> Yahoo! maps function in Operator displays the USA as default?
briansuda: i was thinking about that rel="me self"... can rel hold two values?
sure, both rel and class can take space sperated values
ok, i was not sure
hm, strange... Yahoo!maps handles latitude and longitude in the format xx.xxx, but it doesn't handle them in the format xx.xxxxxx
:S
you should document those issues on the wiki
i think is a page started already for stuff like that
Operator related problems?
SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=13158 * AmanuelTewolde * (+48)
[[User:AmanuelTewolde]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:AmanuelTewolde * AmanuelTewolde * (+156)
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
mkaply, i added some kind of bug on your blog
Ronnos
Ronnos: wow. yahoo doesn't handle 6 digits? that's funny
you can try, it possible i messed things up :S
maybe yahoo handles them, but not in the right way :)
I can certainly truncate for yahoo if necessary. no biggie
mkaply, i'm shocked
it seems that it works again :S
i dunno why :S
Ronnos: yep. fails the first time. I think it is a bug with their broadband map detection
thank god, i was going crazy here about the fact that it worked here :P
ah, i see
false alarm than
I've seen that before. Yahoo does some sort of autodetect with their new flash version
[[microformats-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microformats-issues&diff=0&oldid=13159 * DrErnie * (+191) Governance Issues -
[[User:Amir Guindehi]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Amir_Guindehi&diff=0&oldid=13160 * Amir * (-192) Amir Guindehi -
[[User:Amir Guindehi]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Amir_Guindehi&diff=0&oldid=13161 * Amir * (-11) Amir Guindehi -
hmm, the label prop in vcard seems to be fine as a sup-prop of adr instead of the card..
or can "label" use the type-value-pattern as well?
(as the rfc mentions type values similar to adr->type)
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
s/sup/sub/
'ADR: to specify the components of the delivery address', 'LABEL: to specify the formatted text corresponding to delivery address'
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
i.e. given that an hcard can have multiple adrs, the label should be a sub-prop of adr
bengee - it is not a subprop of adr in vCard, therefore it is not a subprop of adr in hCard
does vcard hanlde multiple adrs and labels separately?
*handle*
it's a subprop in the schema at w3.org/2006/vcard/ns which is what I'm trying to map data against, hmm..
bengee, i think you are confusing the ADR property and the LABEL property, do you mean ADR type?
no, I think what made me stumble as the optional "type" a LABEL may have which is no reflected in hcard
s/as/was/
*not* reflected, sorry
so I thought it might've fitted fine in the adr container
well, LABEL has not been implement in hCard because no one really uses it. So we didn't spend the energy to work on it
but yeah, the vcard rfc keeps them separate
yeah, makes sense
I'm writing a parser, so the question isn't backed by any practical use either
but you might consider tweaking the owl/rdfs thingy where the domain of label is address..
you should send an email to the sem-web mailing list about the w3.org/2006/vcard/ns if it is documented then it has a better chance of being fixed
yeah, ill do
TylerR is Tyler Roehmholdt and is brewing up something social.
Morning.
ntoll is Nicholas Tollervey and can be found online at http://ntoll.org
BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
Good morning all.
Hi DerrickPallas. How's the morning?
Anyone good at Xpath?
[[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13162 * CharlesRoper * (+648) Response to Andy Mabbett regarding UIDs -
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
sreynen: nice reply to joe
I replied, but realized afterwards it was actually a different thread
i'm trying to minimize my participation in this thread, as i think my first reply was a mistake, but i gave myself a pass on answering questions directed at me specifically
Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
bewest, sreynen, I thought both your replies were thoughtful and well considered.
thanks tantek. bewest's reply hasn't come through for me yet, so i'll look forward to reading it
is XFN *only* expressed in rel values on links? meaning, there's no container element, is there?
redmonk, yes, only rel values
however, you can infer context from containers just as with rel-tag
e.g. XFN links in blog posts indicate a timedate stamped assertion about a relationship
see http://gmpg.org/xfn/faq for more
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
?def amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
?lern amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
?learn amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog and Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
?forget amir
I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
?forget amir is Amir
I did not know amir was Amir
?forget amir is AMir Guindehi and
I did not know amir was AMir Guindehi and
grr
?forget amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs
I now only know that amir is blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog and Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
I did not know amir was blogs
?forgetme
I have expunged amir from my mind
?learn amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
:)
sorry for the spam ;)
s'ok when there's no discussion to be interrupting
amir, that was quite entertaining to read
hiya,
hi :)
how be you?
not too bad thank you
goood,
I am sleepy, i need to get some sleep soon,
Same. it seems like it's been a long week.
yeah, very long week!
seem weeks without work take longer than weeks with work,
what OS are you on?
xp
kewl,
have you seen the "zune" theme?
I've *seen* it, but that's all.
i have been using it for a few days,
with the OSX fish background it looks nice,
have you used any microformats on client site yet? if so how did they recievve it~?
i have, but in a somewhat underhand way. i mentioned i'd added them, they didn't understand.
kewl,
it wasn't something i consulted with them on first
propbobly a good move,
i put one in ona work site recently and the client liked it,
but yeah, that's fine. most clients don't want to know *how* a site works, they just want it to work and it to look nice, ultimately.
on a work site rather,
yeah,
i find the outlook import feature they like often,
they also tend to like slimbox,
yeah.
that helps. something that actually produces an effect that seems professional to them and vaguely useful.
yeah,
"vaguely useful" xD
well, you know what i mean :P
all to well, actually :P
i, personally, never extract hcards to my contacts. i tend to only have contacts made up of people who have emailed me, or me them.
phe i do,
hehe,
interesting
i use the hcards,
i use them with gmail using a converter i wrote, its useful somtimes,
i've been pondering for a good hcard in my site, but i hate putting my e-mail adress out there
looking forward to wider use,
well, that's good :)
don't then, Kilianvalkhof. email isn't a required field
hcard does not *have* to have an e-mail adress,
don't publish what you don't already
goof for vauge adresses,
good rather,
@phae, that only leaves my name, company and cell number. a digital "business card" seems rather usefull without an e-mail adress
on my site i just use my e-mail with not completely but not bad spamproofing.
Kilianvalkhof: hCard are about making data accsessible,
perhaps, but ultimately, the purpose of marking something up with a microformat is to add extra meaning and remove ambiguity
my phone accepts them, so your cell number would be useful,
what people want to do with it later is up to them. someone might find that useful.
it certainly won't *hurt* to mark those 3 items of information as hcard, eh?
also, if you mark up your adress, i could use gmap to map you,
you've all got a point
:)
i am still a little unsure about inline hcards, i like the idea, but.... there seems to be somthing.
JamieKnight: : a phone accepting hcards?
not sure what though
phone accepts vcards,
however i still feel that a hcard without e-mail is useless for extracting
I have a little program that i use to put them on my phone, i wrote a plug in that take hcard page urls.
let the person wishing to extract that decide?
@ JamieKnight, which anti-spam method are you using, and how well is it going?
JamieKnight: : heh ;)
@phae, true, true
oo.. that's cool, JamieKnight. So you can grab phone numbers for your address book on it?
i use jammie[dot]knight[at]gmail[dot]com
yeah,
its not very stable though,
thats a really nice idea though
i like that
still needs lots of work,
thanks,
have you mentioned this on the mailing list or anything before (I miss stuff sometimes)?
I was thinkong of writing an app which allows you to fill out oulook card with just the URL,
i concidered the REMOVETHIS option, but itś not very durable
nope, its no hwere near rready,
that reminds me, i need to order my slice,
cool idea though. i like the idea of something that maybe, while visiting a website on your phone, could grab the phone number and name from a hcard
what i would ultimatly like is a contact system where it take the URL from the e-mail name and then get the rest of the details,
so, when i get an e-mail, if i respond it adds them as a contact, and fills in the other details,
but how would you do that? @gmail.com isn't going to be much use.
well, i supose you would need a filter,
the worst that can happen is that there is no hcard,
right
if it works in the background and tries then it would be quite simple.
but you need to check you get the right hcard too. two people may have @yourdomain.com and both email you. you'd have to hope their hcard either matches the name before the @, or contains the email.
it looks, if its not there is doesent fill it in, if there is one there, it does.
true,
it's plausable, i'm just not sure how reliable using @domain.com is alone.
hmmm,
it was an idea,
it still is :)
the idea was not for it to work all the time, but just when it could,
yeah
for example, if i get an email from jon, it goes to hicksdesign.co.uk and grabs his hcard and fill in his phone number,
yeah
its this little implimentation that will work the best,
ultimatly as more people have thier own domains, it will get more useful,
u can do that with my email: amir@guindehi.ch -> http://amir.guindehi.ch -> hcard ;)
but i bet most of the time this won't work ;)
kewl,
well, yeah. i only just set up email for my domain (due to laziness) but my domain is also my OpenID
it would not be heard to cinfgure a server as such,
So I guess it's quite specific, and reliably always me
i am not so sure about open ID,
you can place page at for example. http://name@domain.TLD
or, as you said a subdomain,
name.domain.tld
hmm.
I like your idea though. Intelligently attempting to fill in fields is useful, even if it won't always work.
thanks,
It's a good reason to have a hcard on your domain page
i had a few other ideas, but they are a bit harder,
er.. domain's index page.
heh
hehe,
I was thinking of making a service similar to openID, but with a few differences,
there's been discussions around the place about OpenID with hCards to do intelligent form completion, or automatical profiles etc.
well, i am sort of building a system for that,
i just need to get the system to support it sorted,
:D
basically, you join the system and it give you a subdomain (like DA does) which you can chose to password protect or not, and then when you want to sign up for somthing it gets you details,
m'k
so, when i join flick i type my domain (or any page with a hcard) and it fills in my name and location,
this service will just allow for people without the need for a blog to have hacrd, and calender ect,
trouble si the cost of such a service, makes it diffcult for a small company to run,
okay, right, but the way *I personally* want something to work is I want to type in my OpenID, which is fberriman.com, I authenticate with my chosen OpenID provider, and then the service I'm logging into goes to fberriman.com (my ID) and grabs my hCard
well, my idea require a open id provideer,
Those exist though. :)
your own domain is that, because this is not for authanticating,
what we need is some code which is easy to give to developer and make avlibe which allows you to doa hCard grab
yeah
maybe a couple of PHP functions.
that's the thing. getting the service you're logging in to to go and do that bit
yeah,
so when i go to flick it look at my page though ajax,
I dunno!
It would not be hard to creat thease functions,
create rather,
Why hasn't someone then?
pass,
And that's not me being obtuse. I'm curious.
what you need is somthing people who are constructing forms can copy + past in.
wont cause problems with thier backend and wont make form making harder,
yea
so, for example a function would do,
fron end function in JS
when the onfocus for the URL domain is lost, it look at the domain, and contact the site. if it has a hcard it fill in the other details.
maybe a button that does it.
well, i know what i am doing tommrow know :D
:D drew mclellan did a demo that did something like that
but without the open ID step.
what open id step?
he had the option of a drop down too, to allow you to select from multiple hcards that might exist in the page
i like it,
well.. yeah. it's not relevant, I guess. you just want that get function.
make it a comin element like the submit button, and then hcard are even more useful,
do you have a URL/
I honestly don't know if he put it online anywhere. His URL is http://allinthehead.com
i will ask him next time i see him,
It was his BarCamp presentation. He may have it somewhere.
correction, i will ask alun to ask him next time he see's him,
I see him from time to time, so if I see him first I'll poke him.
kewl, thanks
if it was somthing quick for devlopers, and smooth then it would work well,
maybe have it in the YUI
:)
i would use it,
i need to get my slice up and running soon,
brb
#slicehost
i should actully get going secound thinking,
JamieKnight and Phae, i believe that the Nokia software does handle vCards
well... at least it try's and chokes in it :P
[[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13163 * AndyMabbett * (+308) Response to Pengo by Andy Mabbett -
[[species-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=13164 * AndyMabbett * (+45) Response to Pengo by Andy Mabbett - response & syn. examples
thx tantek re: xfn clarification
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
But if I don't know that XFN, how do I tell that the XFN container restricts the scope of rel-tag?
[[icalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=icalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=13165 * MikeKaply * (+402) Microsoft Outlook -
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=13166 * Mike * (+260) Added quick reminder to
[[citation-examples-markup]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples-markup&diff=0&oldid=13167 * Mike * (+302) Citation Mark Up in the Wild - add Wolfram Mathworld example
[[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=13168 * Mike * (+347) Add Wolfram Mathworld example
[[citation-examples-markup]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples-markup&diff=0&oldid=13169 * Mike * (-69) Wolfram Mathworld -
Hi there, question for you all. Events/conferences/shows, would a combination of hCalendar, geo, and hCard be used to tag up these sort of things, or is there something in the works to address these things in their own format?
I think the anti-scope people are going to drive me insane.
hreview says "Tags are represented using a list of keywords or phrases (using the rel-tag microformat for each individual keyword or phrase tag) that the reviewer associates with the item."
xfolk says that rel-tag indicates tags, which apply specifiically to the link.
rel-tag itself says 'rel="tag" is NOT designed for "tagging" arbitrary URLs or external content.'
Therefore there is a conflict of scope. Especially since the XMDP says "Indicates that the referred resource serves as a "tag", or keyword/subject, for the referring page."
That conflicts directly with the scope change in hReview, xFolk, hCard, and any other format in which rel-tag may be a feature.
yes, I agree
Then, instead of addressing the problem they start saying "interpreters do this, interpreters do that," which only illustrates the problem.
normative != descriptive != consistent
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
hi tantek :-)
congratulations in court
congratulations in court
doh
Oh, goodness: my rant summoned Tantek from the ether!
wrong buttons
greetings - thanks!
tantek: DerrickPallas and I have been scratching our heads at rel-tag
btw - regarding the whole "What Are Microformats?" debate from a while ago (people wanting to rewrite the short definition) - I suggest people take advantage of the new <obplug>WTF feature on Technorati and write their own and vote on ones they like: http://technorati.com/wtf/microformats </obplug>
ah rel-tag - is this still the context debate?
tantek: the rel-tag pages indicate that the tag is applied largely to the page itself
the document
we see this as a conflict with other specs that say that rel-tag applies only to some part of the document
i need to just write an FAQ about this
we've discussed this like a half dozen times at least
we'd like to know when rel-tag applies to what in such a way that you don't have to know about all microformats
unless you /do/ have to know about all microformats (at least the top level containers), in which case I suppose we'll sigh and resign ourselves to the maintenance required
I suppose we are making a disctinction between "applies" and "relates to"
you only have to know about microformats that you care about
What if you care about rel-tags that only apply to the whole document?
with some specific microformats requiring knowledge of other specific microformats due to reuse of microformats as building blocks
or to put it another way: how would a search engine know how to avoid false positives
there is no such thing
show me a real world example
we had this discussion already - analogous to books and keywords inside the front cover
look inside the first few pages of most books and you will find a LoC cataloging data section
with keywords like
1. SubjectA. 2. SubjectB 3. SubjectC
from this you conclude that the book is "tagged" with those subjects
even if not every chapter or page for that matter is about every subject
I'm not sure how that relates to the web
in practice, not only does it not matter that only part of a page is about a specific tag
since we are talking about non-linear media
but that it is ok
analogy is book = page, chapters = parts of a pge
page
the point is, that it is OK that not every chapter is about every subject listed in the LoC data
this is well established
That contradicts what some of the microformats say about rel-tags inside of them.
and thus it is OK that not every section in a web page is about every tag on that page
DerrickPallas - specific URLs/quotations to such contradictions please?
no the point of this is that the whole "scoping" kerfuffle is a redherring
non-problem non-issue
xFolk says that the rel-tag applies to the link.
right
so if you care about more granularity, parse for more granularity
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