Timestamps are in UTC.
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
BobJonkman: ping
[[rel-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=12022 * JohnAllsopp * (+96) See Also -
veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
redmonk is Steve Ivy, http://redmonk.net and is linklogging at http://deliciouslymeta.com
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
[[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12023 * Bob Jonkman * (+1807) Difficulty in parsing for include-pattern
[[User:Bob Jonkman]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Bob_Jonkman * Bob Jonkman * (+593) Bob Jonkman's hcard
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
[[rel-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=12024 * AndyMabbett * (-27) See Also - fmt
[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12025 * MarkJaroski * (+181) add WikEvent
[[rel-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-faq&diff=0&oldid=12026 * AndyMabbett * (+25) rel-design-pattern
[[rel]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel&diff=0&oldid=12027 * AndyMabbett * (-17) redirect to rel-faq
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
[[rel-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-faq&diff=0&oldid=12028 * AndyMabbett * (+126) What microformats use "rel"?
[[rev]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rev * AndyMabbett * (+21) redirect to rel-faq
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12029 * AndyMabbett * (+66) Bob Jonkman's hCard
[[include-pattern-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12030 * AndyMabbett * (+108) Parsing for include-pattern - prettify
[[include-pattern-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12031 * AndyMabbett * (+12)
[[include-pattern-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12032 * AndyMabbett * (+8) fix link
[[hResume]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hResume * AndyMabbett * (+21) redirect
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12033 * AndyMabbett * (+12) link
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12034 * AndyMabbett * (+4) move 'Natural England' to problem section
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12035 * AndyMabbett * (+12) several copy edits, typos, spelling, etc.
[[hcalendar-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12036 * AndyMabbett * (+37) Web Services - life lint offline for over 1 week, so comemnted out
[[hcalendar-implementations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-implementations&diff=0&oldid=12037 * AndyMabbett * (+7) Conversion and Import - fmt
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12038 * AndyMabbett * (+50) clarify fiction
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12039 * AndyMabbett * (+37) Use <code>cell</code> for mobiles
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=12040 * AndyMabbett * (-99) rm duplicate links
[[vote-links]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links&diff=0&oldid=12041 * SteveIvy * (+36) Implementations -
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
[[rel-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=12042 * SteveIvy * (+67) See Also -
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
monkinetic is redmonk/Steve Ivy and can be found at http://redmonk.net
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
[[Talk:rel-design-pattern]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:rel-design-pattern * SteveIvy * (+303) discuss rev attribute
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
An interview with Brian Suda of "Using Microformats" (http://www.marylandmedia.com/2007/01/interview-with-brian-suda-of-using.html) pretty well done
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
briansuda, very well done indeed. I like how it reads as an actual in-person proper interview, instead of the boring fixed question probably sent by e-mail format that's so common these days.
thanks JMulder - i was worried i wrote too much in each answer
briansuda: i thought it was well done as well, though I'm interested to know what "designed for humans first" means in the first bit you quoted.
Nah. Personally I like suck longer answers and I think they'll only be a good thing for people who are unfamiliar with the concept of Microformats. Especially seasoned developers will probably have 100 questions popping up in their head when they read articles or interviews.
(i know that's from mf.org)
i mean, i'm pretty familiar with the whole microformats thing, but i had not seen that quote before and I find it interesting, as (so far at least) users still need software to discover/parse the data
i hope it helps others to learn something and/or excite them
Interview dugg, btw.
monkinetic, the way I understand it is that it is the publishers that will likely need to continiously use the formats. If you make it easy for them to remember and use it, they'll be more likely to use it elsewhere and spread the word. Software authors only need to follow the specs, no matter how easy the format is. Correct me if I am wrong >_>
so are the "humans" in question the publishers?
rather than the readers/consumers?
That's the way I understand it, yes.
yes, we want to make it as easy to publish as possible
If done right, a reader/consumer shouldn't be aware of the underlying format, I would think?
there will be MILLIONS of publishers, but very few folks who write the parsers
sure
well, and evern fewer who write the generators
(meaning the publishing software/groupware - wordpress/blogger/drupal/etc)
And ultimately, the publishers shouldn't need to be aware of the underlying format either? :p
is there a section on mf.org focused on evangelizing to the platform vendors?
JMulder: right
there is an evangelization section on the wiki, i think it is advocacy
I know a friend build a quick but useful JS interface to generate a hCard in his blog's body text.
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=12043 * SteveIvy * (+485) Adding Microformats to Applications - Added section for publishing platforms, minor typo fixes
SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
Anyone want to try out the new version of Operator before I release it to the world today?
http://www.kaply.com/weblog/operator.xpi
It's marked 0.5.5 but it will be changed to 0.6 when I release
sweet
Performance should be way improved
hey mkaply - saw your feedback about object include-pattern
i'm not sure you understood how the include-pattern is supposed to be processed
you don't check it per property
tantek: actually, I did figure it out finally
you simply perform all the inclusions *first*
oh
tantek: What I do in code is I go through every object and I clone the corresponding node and insert it into the vcard with the object
as in replace the object with the cloned node - was that moer the intent?
that's right
then it looks like this is out of date: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback#Parsing_for_include-pattern
could you edit that accordingly?
Yeah. I did find one issue that was kind of ugly to solve though.
So the first thing I do before I parse any microformat is get what I call the "display name" which will show up on the menu
for most microformats, this is kind of obvious - fn for an hcard, summary for an hcalendar, etc.
yes
The object syntax makes this tricky in an hcard. What I'm doing now is when I don't find the fn, I actually have to instantiate the entire hcard in order to get the fn
or I can kind of hackily look for objects in the vcard and check their corresponding nodes in the dom to see if they have an fn
mkaply, you should email the dev-list because there are still outstanding issues about how to actually do the include-pattern
you guys are going to totally suck me into this microformats thing aren't you - it was just supposed to be a side project :)
mkaply - the dev list is very low traffic and very high signal-to-noise
Should I be totally strict about only allowing definied phone types in the tel list? Like Bob Jonkman's resume uses Cel as a type
[[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12044 * Tantek * (+216) parsing for include pattern issue obsolete
MY list currently is {'voice':true, 'home':true, 'msg':true, 'work':true, 'pref':true, 'fax':true, 'cell':true, 'video':true, 'pager':true, 'bbs':true, 'modem':true, 'car':true, 'isdn':true, 'pcs':true},
mkaply, yes you should be strict about it
and note in hcard-examples-in-wild for Bob Jonkman's hCard the problem
yeah, X2V will not find any value for something like "mobile", it just passes it through because it MIGHT be just a CSS style?
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#type_subproperty_values
[[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12045 * MikeKaply * (+438) Parsing for include-pattern -
tel type: VOICE, home, msg, work, pref, fax, cell, video, pager, bbs, modem, car, isdn, pcs
I still love car
mkaply: http://flickr.com/photos/tantek/tags/carphone/ - maybe I should link "car" to that
i'll use the generic carcellphone tag instead
i personally like BBS
where's "bat"?
there are probably still modem lines running BBS's
also, alot of people complain/request more TYPES for email - so be sure the list of types is pretty much only PREF and INTERNET
TEL:TYPE:Red,Bat:1234567890
missing shoe as well
[[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=12046 * AndyMabbett * (-165) Publishing Platforms - rm. Wordpress - that's an implementation, not a case for advcay (& tweak link text)
Hi folks!
where can one get LAT/LONG for a location for geo?
i don't see anything from yahoo or google
ah, i found it in yahoo's url
How's everyone doing today?
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12047 * Tantek * (+46) link tel type "car" to example photos to show example
I want types for URL
mkaply - the 'type' attribute on <a href> already provides for that
and if you want to "tag" a URL, then use xfolk
I was more thinking the difference between a personal and business URL -
yahoo contacts supports adding multiple URLs, but in an hcard, I see know way to know which is business and which is personal
briansuda: I have a report that my exported contacts don't work in outlook 2003, but they work for me in 2007 - do you know of anything I should be aware of ?
well, what "doesn't work"? it might be an issue with multiple URLs or encoding? do you have a URL or what was expected?
just an email from frances berriman. I'll see if it is a particular page/hcard
briansuda: wasn't there a comment a long time ago in your original transform that mentioned UID being required?
i don't have outlook. but we can see if we can't figure it out
Ah, are we talking hCal or hCard?
I can get any outlook we need (MSDN sub) - I just didn't want to install them all :) - But i will if I need to
hcard
i know UID and DTSTART are required for hCal
not sure about hCard....
ok.
either way, as we figure it out, we should document it on the wiki (we have a page started)
I work for a medium-sized consulting company and our clients are primarily enterprise-level. I'm wondering if there have been any case studies done with enterprise content management systems integrating Microformats. I'm very much interested in putting together a couple presentations for my company with regards to Microformats.
i would guess that Yahoo has a pretty big enterprise system, but i don't know if it is a custom system or something they built or something they bought and customized
Yeah, that's what I've been wondering as well.
hcard question: this is a super-basic example, but is this a correct way to markup an org? http://pastebin.com/850331
My biggest hurdle is that we almost exclusively use MS tools/solutions.
it might also be all template based, so they just edit the custom template but the backend is standard
I'd be interested to see if there was a way to integrate Microformats with MOSS07.
monkinetic, you need to do one of two things....
you can remove organization-name
or make it on a child-node inside the org
<span class="org"><span class="organization-name"></span></span>
<a href="http://godaddy.com" class="url org"><span class="organization-name">Go Daddy</span></a> ?
that would work
but the organization-name is not needed
(in this case)
cool, thanks. FINALLY getting my about page cleaned up with a proper hcard
ah ok
FN is also required, that should be on the same element as FN
unless the FN is for you
one sec
this is the whole hcard: http://pastebin.com/850333
ok, i think you have a few extra class="url"s you can keep them or not...
things like the class='url" on the ORG and the yahoo maps will be pulled in as part of the Steve Ivy vcard
you might want to associate them with you, or not?
well, yeah, i thought that was the idea. hence the rel=me
oh, except the org
right, but also the yahoo map GEO you MIGHT want that URL in your profile, but it is up to you
hm.
ok, thanks brian
briansuda: I love this cheat sheet you've put together.
What's the usage rights on this? I'd like to use this in a presentation to my team.
it is Creative Commons, share-alike-attribution, so feel free to use it
Excellent, thanks!
I need to read up on CC.
if you are just using it in a presentation, that i'd count that as fair-use as long as you aren't making money from the presentation
it is just a citing of some work
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
quick question, why does hcard use span class="adr" over <address>?
the address element is not the semantics you think it is
address is used for the contact information of the page author
not a postal address
therefore, it is not used in hCard
thanks briansuda, it's been bugging me that one
not a prob, if you just search for it on the w3c page it explains it more
w3c specs?
yeah, http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6
AdamCraven - see also the hcard-faq - this is an often asked question
hmm, it doesn't actually say much there
question number one
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq
one and two
it says precisely why
no need to say anything else
perfectly, thanks
briansuda: Is there a larger version of that cheatsheet? Perhaps legal or tabloid sized?
I'd love to get a larger one printed out for my office.
at the moment no... it is from a page on the wiki.
Ah okay
and/or you can just "print to fit"
True true. :)
This is some great stuff that could prove to be very useful in an enterprise environment.
Hmm... it looks like the PDF isn't wanting to download again, bah!
if you have any suggestions, feel free to email me
Great!
Will do.
Actually it looks like all of http://suda.co.uk isn't loading.
Might be on my end though.
We're ditching our service provider for a fatter pipe later this month.
WFM (works for me)
Yeah, it's our lovely server then.
Ah there we go.
you can always use google cache
Looks like it scaled beautifully to 11x17 :)
I just realized I can apply a class="hreview" to any element!
briansuda: I'm tempted to get your Short Cuts book today. :)
if you do, let me know what you think - it is a good resource for new folks
Cool, I'm basically new to MF but I definitely see the huge potentials it has.
I'll be back in a bit.
[[firefox-extensions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=firefox-extensions&diff=0&oldid=12048 * AndyMabbett * (-124) Operator - geo bug fixed - thank you.
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12049 * AndyMabbett * (+66) Property List - FAQ: why adr?
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12050 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Property List - "
Righto, back.
[[hcard-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=12051 * AndyMabbett * (+65) Properties (Class Names) - faq: why adr?
I don't think a couple of queries about why 'adr' are worth polluting the list of properties in the spec with a specific FAQ link.
I'm going to revert that change.
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12052 * Tantek * (-68) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
[[adr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&diff=0&oldid=12053 * AndyMabbett * (+51) FAQ: why adr?
now that reference seems more topical, and introductory so that makes more sense
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12054 * AndyMabbett * (+68) no reason gvien for previous revert
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12055 * Tantek * (-68) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
reason given in IRC - no need to pollute the property list with extra links/info like that
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12056 * Tantek * (-2) please do not undo editor reverts without contacting an editor
and "no reason given for a revert" is insufficient reason to redo the edit
[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=12057 * SteveIvy * (+172) WordPress - add VoteBack plugin implementation
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12058 * AndyMabbett * (+70) STILL no reason given for previous revert
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
Phae :)
hey JM
Hi there.
Tyler :)
How's the day going? I'm new around these parts. :)
I just got home from work, so I'm not quite caught up.
It's usually quiet in here though, but you can usually find someone to poke if you've got a query or something.
Ah nice. I'm interested in promoting MF in my workplace. We're a medium-sized consulting company mostly working with MS solutions (yuck!), but I want to slowly start introducing people to open standards and integrating semantics into production.
Sounds good.
I'm a FOSS enthusiest myself, trapped in a proprietary world. ;)
A good way to start showing it would just be to start implementing it in some small areas maybe, and just kinda showing it off a little and noting that it's very easy and quick to do
yeah
Definitely. I've already got Brian's cheatsheet printed out and I'll be hosting a brownbag talk next month.
:)
like tea made. etc.
Hah!
Talking of. I need to update the sheet stuck to my computer at work.
Tyler: patient advocacy :-)
bewes1: Especially in my workplace. ;)
ah brownbag is nice
Our division lives and dies by MS.
(Enterprise Content Management)
The company I work for is also an MS house.
So our web apps are .NET
you can use microformats with MS tools
that's cool, MS has been advocating MF, so there is no credibility issue there
Yeah
Exactly. I'm rather excited about it.
I'm going to try and see if we can (eventually) integrate MF into MOSS07.
Our company had/has a very large impact on what went/goes into that software. I'd love to see some plug-in or integration of sorts.
hProduct, anyone interested in helping with that?
What's it about AdamCraven?
I think it's going to be one of the biggest microformats
http://microformats.org/wiki/hproduct
Phae: I'd eventually like to move on to more open source endeavors, but as a rather recent college grad, I need to secure a bit of financial independence before doing anything too drastic. :)
Sure. That makes sense.
That sounds rather interesting AdamCraven. What sort of help would you be looking for?
Well I'd like to work with a few like minded individuals to really get it going and define a base for it
so far there's some stuff tehre
AdamCraven: what's the use case?
AdamCraven - has there been enough research done per the process?
but not much action
[[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=12059 * SteveIvy * (+83) Companies / Developers / Organizations -
The initial research was done by others, but it's for use with any type of products
perhaps services as well
there was conflict about it being a bit similar to hListing
AdamCraven: have you been following the mailing list discussions that are relevant?
AdamCraven: eg Mike Schinkel was complaining about getting product information from third party vendors
but it's really a different thing. Yes and no. I've been getting the emails but recently there's so much coming through I haven't read jack
3rd party vendors? I can't see initially why that's a problem
I doubt you are alone
Hi there KevinMarks.
If you have a product to sell, you can mark it up
and bingo, it's ready in a machine friendly format
AdamCraven: you are putting the cart in front of the horse :-)
nothing too complicated. Name, Price(+shipping), description, but obviously things are more complicated than initial ideas
AdamCraven - unless those initial ideas are based on research, they are a priori and not fit for a microformat
bewes1: Don't you mean the hCart? :p
no
I've spent all day working on a product CD for a large company. They're very fussy about how their product ranges are displayed. It's part of their branding to them. I wonder how they would take to having to change that.
that list of fields must come from analysis of implied schema of examples
AdamCraven: yeah, I'd encourage you to back up a little bit
Not that I'm saying they shouldn't, ofc.
AdamCraven: find out what problems are actually ocurring in the wild
unless that thorough research and analysis is done, then no microformat
AdamCraven: postpone brainstorming and ideation until after you collect evidence
and yes, as bewest says, define the problem you are trying to solve first
as a tip, Mike Schinkel had a few complaints, I was trying to get more information from him
Phae: What are your thoughts on changing it?
This is obviously a place for talk, but going through the right process is important naturally
I'm not saying I would necessarily change it. It's just worth noting that there are conventions that people use already and I wondered if many had been documented yet.
We all know to some degree how products are represnted on the web. It's common sense in many cases.
AdamCraven: I want to encourage your efforts, but watch out for assumptions like that
they can be deceiving
specifically which assumptions?
about how products are represented?
"we know how products are represented", "it's common sense", and implicitly: "people commonly follow common sense when authoring markup"
Ah yeah Phae, I'm constantly finding processes and conventions that never get written down. One of our biggest hurdles with enterprise content management is uniformity, so everyone knows how to do a certain process a certain way, so that if an issue arises, everyone can help address it.
That's the ticket, Tyler. Finding and documenting a good range of examples is a really valid and important step, imho.
And real ones. Not made up theoretical ones.
I wasn't referring to mark-up. More of you can recognise a shop when you see one
Exactly. It's like writing up personas for user experience researching. You have to actually talk to people who will be using your site to find out what they really do/want, instead of just fabricating a type of user.
:D
yeah
if that's true, a good starting point would be to document all the ways shops are commonly marked up
the process always starts with documenting what is present... we try not to skip ahead by believing that we generally know how it's done
http://www.mail-archive.com/microformats-discuss@microformats.org/msg03311.html
I have a hard time dealing with our clients who simply want something done the way they envision it, because 90% of the time, it ends up being a horribly unaccessible and as important, unaesthetic experience.
Yes, I did a few. Obviously not exhaustive
and blimey, I've never seen this web interface for the mailing list
heh
AdamCraven: I think you will find lots of interest and support for this effort
that's much nicer
it's pretty, huh?
AdamCraven, mailing list is not appropriate for research reference. Please start "product-examples" page for example, based on "examples" page. on the wiki.
AdamCraven: but we'll be challenging you to stick to the process
noooooooo. Don't wrap me up in red tape yet!
:-)
heh
it's not red tape
It's not red tape. It just stops anyone wasting their time.
it's how we get things done
AdamCraven - it's a filter for all the random format ideas that come across
Best practices.
it's also how you actually figure out what fields you NEED
vs. what you *think* you NEED
exactly, tantek
great! Well I know this will be a good one. And yes, need is the key
and how to name them the most compatibly with existing efforts
Anyway. This is too many cooks and I'm starving. brb.
so for, example, the -discussion page there raises a lot of red flags for me
Righto Phae.
the process is there to build a better format
because most of the content on that page is people saying what they believe/predict how things should be
without the documentation of what already exists
AdamCraven: does that make sense?
yes it does. I believe with this one it will be quite easy the process
because there are so many examples
and shit, I'm liking the web interface
for the mail archive
also, don't just focus on the fields being presented
capturing the mark up is also very useful
what do you mean by that?
I'm looking at the hproduct-examples page
the documentation there captures which fields are represented
ah yes
but now how they are represented (the markup)
it doesn't include any mark-up ideas
* not how
we aren't capturing ideas
we are just capturing what already exists
indeed
:-)
It's ok to have extra mark-up fields that won't be used all the time?.. for example.
AdamCraven: anyway, I'm pretty excited about this
make sure you capture real problems that people are having, because unless we are solving a real problem with a real use case, the format isn't worth much
On the web there's some sites that list prices & shipping (ebay).
I might be able to reach out to amazon and see what problems they might have
AdamCraven: it's impossible to tell until after we collect a sufficiently large number of examples, right?
hmm... just noticed that the pages didn't use a generic name
The price can be much marked up by the shipping costs. So it creates a problem if you don't include it
no double negative reasoning please
but not all products have shipping prices
if we don't do x, there will be a problem
that's not valid reasoning
so in some cases you can have additional mark-up that won't be used?
every property must be justified on its own accord for what it solves
rather than what the lack of it causes
the hproduct- pages that is
You can put what I said then into the positive as well. It solves a problem
However, this is an irc channel
you should put it in the positive - that's my point
and my fingers hurt
thus I don't want to type out all day. But I appreciate your feedback
it's more than just wording
it's changing your way of thinking about it - so that naturally you think more about supporting a property, rather than arguing against it's removal
[[hproduct-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-examples&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+3333) hproduct-examples moved to product-examples
Got it Tantek. Anyways guys, off for some exercise. I'm excited too bewes1, think it would be used a lot.
(Aaron created most of the hproduct-* pages)
Thanks AdamCraven - hope to see you back here!
tantek: Is there a section of the wiki that lists current concepts like that hProduct one?
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hproduct-formats": no need for a blank page with the wrong name - should have been product-formats
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hproduct-challenges": no need for a blank page with unknown/unclear purpose
[[include-pattern-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-feedback&diff=0&oldid=12060 * Bob Jonkman * (+59) Parsing for include-pattern - Link to IRC of 2007-01-03
whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
[[hproduct-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+4478) hproduct-brainstorming moved to product-brainstorming
Ah nevermind. Found the "Exploratory Discussions" section. :)
Are you on the mailing list, Tyler?
Not yet Phae. I only just discovered Microformats last night when reading "HTML Mastery". :)
heh. nice. Just a thought. It's picked up traffic lately, but you might find it interesting too.
I believe I'll be signing up promptly.
Oh definitely!
Ok.
I'm going to wrap my brain around it this week.
I need to get to purchasing a domain as well.
[[product-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=12061 * Tantek * (+1758) moved previous hproduct-feedback contents here since they are actually brainstorming
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hproduct-feedback": contents moved to product-brainstorming since that's what they were. no need for hproduct-feedback until there is a solid hproduct proposal based on proper research, implied schema etc.
I'd like to get an accessibility/sematics/MF blog started. :)
[[hproduct]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+996) hproduct moved to product
Accessibility with microformats is kinda where my thought processes are heading too.
Yeah, I'd actually be interested in exploring an accessibility-geared MF if one isn't already being looked into.
Or at least using current MF's in an accessibility environment.
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=12062 * SteveIvy * (+39)
It's self-pimpage, but it'll save me repeating myself: http://www.fberriman.com/?p=110
that'll be Derek Featherstone talking about it I imagine.
[[User:SteveIvy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:SteveIvy&diff=0&oldid=12063 * SteveIvy * (+25)
A few people have emailed me about mFs and accessibility too.
Oh nice Phae. I'll take a gander at that.
yes, that link would be good to add somewherw
My main focus in university was accessible/semantic design.
Which?
Unfortunately my college didn't offer a good degree for what I wanted to study, so I made my own. :)
Heh, sounds like my university.
Fair enough.
Yeah, I was lucky enough to be in the "Liberal Arts" college of my university, so making my own degree was an option.
Crazy americans.
But yeah. Worthy cause. :)
I'd like to think so! hehe
I only got to do that with one semester. Best semester I ever did though :x
Yeah, I basically got to make a whole bunch of independent studies and got into plenty of classes that had prerequisites.
:)
Sweet.
I'm guessing I'm the only fellow with a BA in HCI, whereas most HCI degrees are BS-based and include more CS courses.
I did HCI during my computing degree. It was part of it though.
Ah neat. I basically made it an entire curriculum. haha
Excellent. I'm now the owner of 3lements.com. Future home
Woops, haha.
Lucky you. That's the only thing that makes me consider studying a bit longer after my graduation.
[[product]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product&diff=0&oldid=12064 * Tantek * (-34) made more generic to "product", fixed links, removed links to dead/empty pages
Future home of semantics, accessibility, and Microformats. :)
Currently my study is very broad .. if that's even a proper english way to say it.
Probably.
You mean it's varied and not that specialised?
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "hproduct": delete hproduct page until it has made its way through the process. until then, stick with generic product explorations
Yes.
mmhmm
Which I like, but I wish they'd offer to get specialised as well. Instead, it's all self-study, as they call it. a.k.a. paying them yet doing it yourself.
That was like my studies JMulder. I took everything from technical writing, to web developer certification, to graphic design, to programming.
Cool.
Did you ever come up with a name for your degree? :p
Oh yes, sorry. Human-Computer Interaction.
Ah, that's how it's classified. Cool.
It was fun for sure. :)
[[collection-description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=collection-description&diff=0&oldid=12065 * TimHodson * (+621) Added collection description examples
I also got a minor in English literature because I love the classics. :)
[[collection-description]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=collection-description&diff=0&oldid=12066 * TimHodson * (+0)
I was meaning to ask, how do you go about getting that cute welcome message upon entering the room?
Use ?def whatever you want.
http://microformats.org/wiki/irc
[[product]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=product&diff=0&oldid=12067 * Tantek * (+42) noted hProduct proposal
Lovely! Thank you Phae. :)
[[collection-description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=collection-description&diff=0&oldid=12068 * TimHodson * (+17) Examples -
Usually people just put their full name and where they blog or work so people don't get confused with aliases.
[[collection-description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=collection-description&diff=0&oldid=12069 * TimHodson * (+85) Background -
Yeah... that won't add much value for me then ;)
Well, yeah.
Ah, well, I suppose it's not going to be hard for people to know who I am. :)
?def Tyler Roehmholdt is a web developer with Ascentium Corporation and is the author of the upcoming site, 3lements.com.
Tyler Roehmholdt is a web developer with Ascentium Corporation and is the author of the upcoming site, 3lements.com.
Excellent. :)
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=12070 * SteveIvy * (-47) Exploratory Discussions - fix hproduct links based on recent moving by tantek
Thanks SteveIvy!
welcome
Steve Ivy's been doing interesting things with a VoteLinks plug-in for wordpress, I noticed today.
I really should try it.
Ah, you're here!
please do. i need feedback on the direction it's going
Case in point about aliases. :)
Sure.
Neat. :) I'm going to be using my registrar's blog feature whenever it goes live.
Might be worth posting a quick mail to the -discuss list monkinetic if you need a few more testers.
yeah i should.
have to wait a few hours until i get home - can't access home email from work. :(
Fair dos. :)
ok, emailed myself a reminder
cool
Oh, hah! Looks like the blog feature has already gone live. Excellent!
Perfect! http://blog.3lements.com/
Tyler: what's the 3 for
Semantics, accessibility, and Microformats. :)
ah. clever
The site name is pronounced, "Three Elements". :)
hm. 3lements.com n'exist pas.
Yeah, interestingly enough, my registrar gives blogs to their users, but not hosting. :)
I have a VPS that I'll be configuring soonish for it.
There we go monkinetic. Changed out the blog title to be a bit more descriptive. :)
heh
You're doing Wordpress plug-in work monkinetic?
yes
Nice. How's that coming along?
so so. not a lot of time for it.
Oh yeah? Mostly a side project I take it?
oh yeah, for sure
side side project
hm, markdown and micrformats are seriously incompatible
Haha.
What's your main profession/job?
i think picoformats are microformats in markdown
Web developer at GoDaddy (blah blah i do not speak for godaddy software inc)
briansuda: the trick is that as soon as you put something in a block-level element in markdown, it stops processing.
Hehe
well, that is a specific issue with Markdown, not the concept of marking-down
Nice monkinetic, I'm a web developer with Ascentium Corporation. Probably haven't heard of us. :)
"Note that Markdown formatting syntax is not processed within block-level HTML tags. E.g., you can’t use Markdown-style *emphasis* inside an HTML block." -- http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#html
briansuda: true
perhaps i should have said that MarkDown and microformats are seriously incompatible.
markdown(tm)
or, that
I'm at my work computer at the moment, is there a Microformats bundle for TextMate?
I can't check my copy of TM at home. :)
not one that I'm aware of
I was thinking of making one myself, but never got around to it in the end
Tyler: do you have a mac at work?
Nope. :(
ow :/
I was going to say, the TM copy is personal, so you can use it on as many computers as you want as long as you are the one using it
We're basically attached to MS at the hip, head, shoulder, brain, you name it, we're attached to them here.
ah
Oh very nice.
I feel sorry for you
:)
Yeah... hehe
yup yup
I've it on 3 computers myself
I'm going to be trying to inject some MF into our work though.
you should make your computer run mac os x through the projectx86 :D
Hehe
Actually I'm *slowly* saving up for either an iMac or MacBook Pro.
nice
I'm saving for a black macbook myself
Very cool. :)
I've got a ibook and powerbook from work atm
but I'd like one of my own
I don't mind having a small screen because I have a 20-inch widescreen back at the apartment.
of course, on top of those 2 I've a mac mini at home, but that's my mom's freelance computer :P
I've been thinking about investing in a Matrox TripleHead2Go
[[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=12071 * AndyMabbett * (+118) See Also - Sources for coordinates
Haha.
Very cool. :)
that'd allow me to have 3 monitors attached to my laptop, making my desktop space 3840x1024 :P
Goodness!
of course, that would call for wireless keyboard and mouse :)
Three 30in Cinema Displays. ;)
well, mouse I already have but..
[[geo-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=12072 * AndyMabbett * (+117) Notes - Sources for coordinates
unfortunately not 3 30"
you'd have to get a pimped out mac pro for that
it'd support 4 30" cinemahd displays :)
:)
I saw one of those 30" in real life, they are huuuuuuge
I can't imagine having 4 of them set up as a rectangle
[[hcard-cheatsheet]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=12073 * AndyMabbett * (+118) Notes - Sources for coordinates
I don't think you could find the cursor
Do any of you know if I can do a redirect from 3elements.com to blog.3elements.com via the DNS zone file?
Haha
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12074 * AndyMabbett * (+118) Informative References - sources for coordinates
Tyler, not really from the DNS, but you can do that on your server with .htaccess and mod_rewrite
That's what I figured briansuda. Looks like I'll be installing Bind9 on my VPS. :)
I was hoping I could do that within the zone file. Alas. :)
Or rather... installing Nginx.
only if blog and www are on two different IPs
then in DNS you can redirect www to blog
Ah yeah, blog is actually with Gandi's IP.
The www will be with my VPS.
Actually, I don't even want the www. :)
Off to get some lunch. I'll be back in a couple minutes.
when marking up a book review is there an accepted way to identify the author?
i'm adding vcards for the authors, but not sure if i need to explcitly associate them somehow
the author of the review?
no, the author of the book ebing reviewed
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
monkinetic - that's perhaps topic for citation discussions
hm.
since you are essentially including a citation of the book being reviewed
bascially, i've got [hreview] i found this cool book by [vcard]author1[/] [vcard]author2[/] and it was [rating]really great[/rating] [/hreview]
(you get the idea)
[[hproduct-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12075 * AndyMabbett * (+9) Field Details - currency is currently a proposal, not a fully-fleged uF
[[hproduct-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12076 * AndyMabbett * (-43) Challenge Problems - so much for protecting perma-links
perhaps <span class="vcard"><a class="fn url productauthor" href="#">author1</a></span> ?
[[hproduct-proposal]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12077 * Tantek * (+34) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by AaronGustafson
[[hproduct-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12078 * Tantek * (-160) removed section that pointed to an empty document. no reason to "see also" an empty document.
[[hproduct-proposal]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hproduct-proposal&diff=0&oldid=12079 * Tantek * (+9) re-add Andy's edit of "proposed"
monkinetic, you should move the productauthor to class="vcard author"
much like hResume, we are saying class='vcard contact" that this vcard IS the contact
so you can say this vcard IS the authhor
briansuda: Just found how to get the blog to be just 3lements.com instead of blog, without having a host. :)
Unfortunately it looks like it's going to be 3-6 hours for the change to take effect.
hmm? to get a blog?
why not just use wordpress.com/ ?
no hassle, no host
Oh sorry no, to have the DNS switch over.
immediate
I'll take a look.
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=12080 * AndyMabbett * (+329) rel-tagging on Wikipedia -
I'm rather liking what Gandi is offering at this point with it's Dotclear engine. :)
[[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12081 * AndyMabbett * (+207) Tags with file extensions
[[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12082 * AndyMabbett * (+8) reformat for ease of linking an readability - is this presentation preferred?
What's everyone working on today/
*?
[[hreview-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-issues&diff=0&oldid=12083 * AndyMabbett * (+20) OpenIssue
[[Template:AwaitingAnswer]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:AwaitingAnswer * AndyMabbett * (+118) Awaiting answer
[[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12084 * AndyMabbett * (+84) AwaitingAnswer template
empty questions do not belong in the FAQ - they belong in issues
this is a little ridiculous
i think the keyword in FAQ is "frequently"
and if it doesn't have an answer - it is an unresolved issue
and therefore belongs in -issues not -faq
sigh
[[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12085 * Tantek * (-345) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
briansuda: where does the "author" value come from, and does it really mean the author of the book being reviewed, or is it intended to be used as the author of the review or page
yeah, that definitely doesn't belong in FAQ
not sure why someone would put it there
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Template:AwaitingAnswer": there is no need for this. unanswered questions should be added to a *-issues document, not empty in a *-faq
in fact, -issues + mailing list might be apropriate
-faq is definitely not
or extra work for others....
monkinetic, in the effort to not reinvent we use the semantics of hAtom (http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Author) and re-use author
[[xfolk-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-faq&diff=0&oldid=12086 * AndyMabbett * (+21) AwaitingAnswer
bewest - too true
briansuda: hence author here is meant "the author of the hreview" not "the author of the thing being reviewed" - yes?
not again...
[[xfolk-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-faq&diff=0&oldid=12087 * Tantek * (-234) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Bud
[[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12088 * AndyMabbett * (+345) rv. no reason given for previous revert
[[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12089 * Tantek * (+651) moved open issues that were added to rel-tag-faq to rel-tag-issues
ugh.
[[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12090 * Tantek * (-345) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
[[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12091 * Tantek * (+345) moved unanswered questions to rel-tag-issues
this is ridiculous
this must be what watching wikipedia edits is like
[[rel-tag-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=12092 * Tantek * (+6) fix close tag
ok, I believe I have reverted/cleaned up the damage done
monkinetic, author is a person and it is scoped to the specific format
oh, ok then
thanks
[[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12093 * AndyMabbett * (+313) Need reformatting -
...
[[rel-tag-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12094 * BenWest * (-313) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pigsonthewing
hober: yes.. we are aware
[[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12095 * AndyMabbett * (+313) rv. no reason given for [previous revert.
Andy, the reason is the content you added is inapropriate
[[rel-tag-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=12096 * BenWest * (-313) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by BenWest
just imagine FAQ stands for frequently answered questions... if there is no answer, it doesn't belong in FAQ, it belongs in -issues
saying that it was mistaken is generous...
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12097 * Tantek * (-188) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12098 * Tantek * (+0) do not add previously non-referenced in the spec "References", do not undo editor edits, especially twice or more times, as that is grounds for being banned, no time to waste with wiki-fighters
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
Hey welcome back Phae.
hey
What's up for you this evening?
going through my emails mostly
I don't think I've ever gotten to the point where I need to go through them (fortunately?). I think the most I've ever gotten in one day has been about 5. :)
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12099 * AndyMabbett * (-126) Normative References - remove 'previously non-referenced in the spec "References" ' which I had earlier added, contrary to the apparently secret rule, as recently made clear in an edit from Tantek
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12100 * Tantek * (+126) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12101 * Tantek * (+119) re-added informative reference which expands upon info contained in a normative reference, added Property Notes section to note that authors may want to use E.123
What's this MF Zen Garden you're working on Phae?
oh. guilt.
uhm.
CSS zen garden but with mFs
just to show "live" formats and multiple ways to display them
but also an option to use javascript, rather than just CSS
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12102 * AndyMabbett * (-206) remove 'previously non-referenced in the spec "References" ' which I had earlier added, contrary to the apparently secret rule, as recently made clear in an edit from Tantek
Ah neat. :) I haven't done much JS work.
me neither!
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12103 * Tantek * (+206) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=12104 * Tantek * (-1) restored E.123 informative reference as it is used in "Property Notes", and IMC informative reference as it is informal vCard reference which (vCard) is also referenced throughout hCard.
Pff... who needs scripts... ;)
:)
Hmm... it's been a solid 2 hours since attempting to have this blog be 3lements.com without the subdomain... DNS is so stubborn sometimes.
I suppose it's due to the fact that it's the tld and not a subdomain.
yeah, sometimes it just takes a while
and even longer when you really want it to update :)
No joke! :)
Good thing I'm out of work in about an hour, hah.
Unfortunately my iPod started acting up today for unknown reasons, so it's been a long day at work.
greetings
Andy Mabbett has now continued to email the mailing-list with meta-discussion emails even though he has been requested to stop and been told he will be banned if he doesn't.
For anyone here on IRC who has been following microformats-discuss, I am going to ask for anyone who wishes to note *any* reason to not ban Andy Mabbett from the mailing list for a week as a result of his inability to stop wasting list time with meta-discussion emails even after being asked to stop.
I'll wait one hour - until 5pm PST for anyone else to raise any objections to banning Andy Mabbett for a week. Absent any objections (for any reason), I will then ban him.
These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.
See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.