Timestamps are in UTC.
heh
because it's someone you can't get with so you write poetry instead
Hellenic would have been a better choice
not sure what Romantic refers to there
the historical period would be fitting
othermaciej: hehe except that's not what "muse" means
bewest - watch your inbox. ;)
hehe
has been waiting | has waited
yes, romanticism makes much much more sense
and that's what i was thinking when i put rel="muse" in the "romantic" category and knew someday i'd have to clarify that :)
lol I now have "Greek Music Ringtone" ads in my gmail
hah!
I'm not sure I agree with the category name :)
If it were up to me I'd look for another name
do you have "random hookup" yet?
or "had threesome with once"?
we need to cover all the range of modern relationships
othermaciej: the burden is on the proposed content to prove that it is pervasively and widely expressed in an unsuitably lossy representation before being considered for inclusion ;-)
it's a "esoteric until proven vulgar" kind of system
for "random hookup", I would cite 50% of LiveJournal
in fact, maybe that should be our motto or something
or at least standard response to spurious proposals
bewest, good one
othermaciej - the term "hookup" is far too imprecise
which is perhaps why it appears to have such a large sample size
how do you express the threesome with merely rel
tantek: clearly we need to use RDF to specify which parts of person A did what to which parts of person B
since you might want to mark up the threesome as a group
does one need to be in a threesome to truly understand RDF?
<span class="groupsex"><a href=".." rel="laid"></a><a ...></a></span>
perhaps this is why so few people understand RDF?
rdf is simple and beautiful
except when its ugly and complicated
rdf ducks the hard problems
I think if threesomes and RDF were related at all RDF would be a lot more popular
yakk, perhaps you have struck upon the solution to evangelizing RDF
tantek, between RDF and microformats I think we've got all the hard problems ducked
tantek, I just wish we had something in between...
yakk, actually, I'm convinced that solving the domain specific schema problems *are* the hard problems, and thus what makes microformats challenging to develop yet actually useful
as opposed to another layer of abstraction
that just moves symbols around
bewest, wow - muse as part of identity - that is interesting
:-)
it's who we want to be like
becoming like ___
our ancient Greek friends would have understood it more in that way as well
that is the point of role models, isn't it?
tantek, well applications of RDF do try to solve the domain specific schema problems. When comparing RDF and microformats the difference seems to be readability vs writeability, and comparing the languages that are used to describe and specify the schemas
the problem is what to do for all the people that misunderstood it and used it to encode the romantic semantics
tantek, and what I long for is something that's easy for me as a human to write but easy for me as a programmer to parse
bewest, the romantic semantics are included
it is just that the definition is broader than just the romantic semantics
a muse is inspiration. yes? if sex inspires you then sex is your muse, irregardless of how many muses are involved.
yakk, the easy to parse desire is a red herring
tantek, and schema specs that are easy for me as a human to understand and something I can give an automated parser to parse
open source libraries are built once, easily maintained
and trivially shared
ok
I think that's a cop out
thus "easy to parse" is "easy to get the library to parse"
it's the end state
I've tried writing libraries and the structure of the specifications makes the libraries hard to write
the intermediate state of having to write the libraries is merely transition
and only a few people need to make that transition
yakk, then leave it to others
to write the libraries
others have for example
whoops, did I start a real flamewar about RDF accidentally?
not everyone needs to be a parser library writer
nor should they want to
but that's ok
this is really a competition of ideas
tech based on easy to publish, vs. tech based on easy to parse
I like writing parsers, but what I've found when I've tried writing them is that the other parsers out there don't follow the specs
i'm willing to let the market pick the winner ;)
since they often make things very difficult
interoperability requires detailed specs on how to parse, including error handling
othermaciej, and we're lacking that for microformats, sadly
but whether it's "easy" or not has relatively little relevance
othermaciej, it feels like we're in even worse shape than we were for RSS a few years ago
RSS didn't really solve a new problem
RSS didn't do anything that HTML couldn't do with the simple addition of a <datetime> element
I disagree
in many ways RSS was 90% unnecessary reinvention
microformats piggyback on HTML parsing
and the problem of interoperable HTML parsing is getting solved
now the mindset of "feeds" - that was the real innovation
RSS pretends to be based on XML parsing but that is a lie
right othermaciej - on all accounts
why is it a lie?
I'm kind of cranky about the mozilla microsummaries / live titles, since the problem is already solved with either rss or html <title>
jinx: an RSS reader that only accepted well-formed XML would not be very useful for processing real-world feeds
jinx: because RSS parsers are now tag-soup like rather than strict XML parsers
yakk, I agree with you re: microsummaries
unnecessary reinvention :(
tantek, but people love inventing new wheels
in the end there's only need for one kind: the round one
yakk, where do they get that impulse?
is it taught in school?
is it ego?
and how can we teach people to unlearn that impulse?
I don't know - its an instinct I have had for sure
I don't agree it's always a bad thing. If people didn't try and innovate or change things, we'd still be using stone wheels...
yakk, BTW, please feel free to add criticism of microsummaries here: http://microformats.org/wiki/page-summary-formats#Issues_2
I try to stop and think about it before going forward. And often I miss out on opportunities as a result
the answer should be laziness AKA economic incentive
that is - it is theoretically easier/simpler/faster to reuse rather than reinvent
tantek, its hard to elaborate my microsummary issues beyond "oh my god! why on earth did you do it?"
yakk, "the problem is already solved with either rss or html <title>" is a good start
tantek, microsummaries might be a technical solution to a ui problem too. As engineers we're used to creating a new protocol to solve a new problem.
why is that "as engineers"?
is that a discipline taught in "engineering school"?
or is it simply that engineers are not taught to reuse enough?
or perhaps only *programmers* have this problem
because other engineering disciplines very much reuse existing solutions
for safety etc. reasons
tantek: that's interesting... could it really be a pedagogical issue?
bewest, I think it is
tantek: most programming excercises in school /are/ to re-implement things
tantek, I dunno - its tied up with NIH too
no CompSci program that I know of teaches students to use the web to search for the solution first, before inventing it
and IMHO - that is a necessary skill that needs to be taught in schools
interesting
you think mainly undergrad or other levels too?
undergrad should be sufficient
especially if you were graded on how well you assembled your solution from existing libraries
I meant in regard to where the problem resides
and how little code you wrote yourself
as opposed to the cleverness of all your handwritten code
yes
hmmm
it is a methadological problem
I think there's a place for both, but reuse isn't taught enough
sometimes clever original solutions are good though
programmers need to be more like assemblers of building blocks
rather than craftsmen of building blocks themselves
at least to begin with
tantek: I'm sure most teachers would share that view though
and it's hard to be both good at that, and at having judgment for when reusing something existing or copying a well-known technique is the right thing
obviously crafting new building blocks is a necessary skill as well, but IMHO secondary to understanding how to reuse/repurpose existing building blocks
tantek, most programmers will never be great craftsmen anyway
few high-level building blocks can be used as is
yakk, that's ok
usually you have to change them or write a lot of glue
tantek, its reality - and they don't need to be. All they'll be doing is connecting components in Visual Basic or reusing javascript toolkits.
build vs. reuse is a tough tradeoff that depends on your requirements
if most programmers are only good at rearranging existing building blocks, I would hypothesize that would solve most programming problems
well, presence of glue is the hint
bewest, precisely
and open protocols and formats are that glue
which is one of the reasons I chose to focus a lot of energy on microformats
for instance in WebKit we use a third-party xml parsing library right now, but if XHTML ever became seriously popular on the web we would probably have to write a custom one to get good enough performance
general-purpose components by definition do not take into account your specialized needs
of course, most projects have fewer specialized needs than they think
othermaciej: that's a different problem though
optimizations come late
I mean, how many people out there would write web browsers?!
it takes a total nutjob to write a browser, seriously
yeah
we don't want to associate with that sort
mfbot is a little bot kingryan put together with pieces from mediawiki to report on wiki changes and http://microformats.org/wiki/mfbot
you know what's stupider than writing a web browser? Writing *two* web browsers.
welcome mfbot!
yay
yakk, othermaciej, indeed (re: web browsers)
awww, come back mfbot!
heh
othermaciej, tantek, sadly, I just love working on the app people use all day long.
yakk: why do you work on Flock then?
(zing!)
oooh
othermaciej, (insert some comment about apple market share in anything but mp3 players)
now now, be nice kids. othermaciej - shame on you.
othermaciej, basically because I don't want to spend my time making pages lay out right...
CSS1 is so Bubble 1.0.
tantek: well, now that firefox has changed to our layout model we'll probably never need to fix them
yakk: I'm just kidding, not much market share here to boast about
tantek: the min/max layout model makes it nearly impossible to get some float corner cases right
(ironically related to microformats)
othermaciej, tantek, does dbaron's new layout work change their model to be more CSSlike?
othermaciej - go to this URL in both Safari (latest public) and FF/Camino : http://kitchen.technorati.com/contacts/search/maciej
it even hasa spiffy new logo in the bottom
a bit more rounded, yes?
yakk: it makes it more WebKit-like
note that the little white on grey plus boxes do not function in Safari
othermaciej, fast? :)
but work fine in FF/Camino
they are floated
two-pass, computing min/max widths and then doing the layout
yakk: they wish :-)
so technically it is a CSS1 float / hyperlink activation bug
othermaciej, every day I hack on mozilla I'm amazed at how fast it is :)
but still a problem relating to CSS1 float support
othermaciej, when I was hacking on webkit I was amazed how small it was after spending so much time in mozillaland
tantek: probably just broken hit testing
CSS doesn't specify hit testing at all so I could beg out on a technicality
still - that tends to imply broken layout
since hit testing is all about rectangles
which come from layout
yakk: when were you hacking on webkit?
tantek: fwiw it's fixed in our SVN trunk
really? cool.
well done.
tantek: there's no broken layout, the parent just wasn't acounting for overhanging rects I think, so would terminate the hit test too early
then i won't bother finding a CSS "workaround" (ahem) to fix it. ;)
othermaciej, hmm - probably right after the initial source drop of webcore. I was looking at is an alternative to mozilla for danger. Probably 3.5 years ago.
yakk: it would have been hard to use it then, but it's getting trendy for mobile devices now
othermaciej, yeah - it was a huge pain in the ass. I ported most of kwq to unix as an experiment. The nokia guys did the same thing later. The tie-ins to KParts were still really tight then too
the code is a lot more portable now
othermaciej, so I hear. I'll take a look one of these days. Does it run & display on non-mac?
(from svn)
it's been known to
the other ports have had somewhat spotty maintenance
Qt port is seeing a lot of action right now though
is it still build on kwq?
no
there is no kwq any more
has it's own platform-independent porting layer
nice!
it sounds like you've been busy in the past uh - four years :)
mfbot is a little bot kingryan put together with pieces from mediawiki to report on wiki changes and http://microformats.org/wiki/mfbot
factorial joe
tantek: the more I think about, the more I'm confused over this "romantic" connotation with "muse"
it is a romantic notion as opposed to a classical notion
tantek: I don't recall any romantic connotation, and don't see it any definitions
it is romantic as in emotional rather than the other relationship categories which are more logically determined by various characteristics
thus being the romanticism connotation fits
is a "muse" more romantic than a "friend"?
that's a somewhat compelling argument, except that apparently most people interpret otherwise.... as othermaciej just demonstrated
othermaciej: no
othermaciej: it's not that kind of relationship
tantek: anyway, I guess you know my opinion ;-) if there's any other convincing I can do, let me know
(identity)
I think historically many well-known muse relationships have involved an undertone of unrequited romantic feeling
the notion of identity is not incompatible with the notion of romanticism
othermaciej, yes, certainly it is inclusive of that possibility, but not requiring of it
it is a superset
bewest, would you say that those who inspire us, define us?
all I know is that my friend eskil has a 'muse' who he would marry if he had the chance
isn't he already married?
he's the only person who had someone they describe as their muse
tantek: that is the Hellenic idea...
othermaciej, well, he's getting divorced, but even before all that, his wife knew the place his muse held...
tantek: music has an ethos... the idea was that if you listen to a certain kind of music you would /become/ a certain kind of person
yakk: he's getting divorced? yikes
bewest, there is some truth to your hypothesis
in reality inspiration does not determine identity
not wholly anyway
yakk, muses can be exceptionally powerful
regardless of what the greeks thought
othermaciej: actually, it does... we are most like those we surround ourselves with
I think of the existence and placement of "muse" as an easter egg in the spec anyway
othermaciej, indeed, it is only one input, perhaps not a determining factor
bewest: but surely our intrinsic nature dictates what we will be inspired by in the first place
surround ourselves != muses though
how else would you mark up your role model, though
therefore, the reasoning does not follow
othermaciej, yeah - its sad.
tantek: true
surrounding ourselves is closer to acquaintances
speaking from XFN values
yakk: what happened? or maybe this is not the right place to talk about it
tantek: yes, I'm being too broad, simply to make the connection to identity
othermaciej, they grew apart basically. they had issues they didn't deal with along the way
the etymology of muse supports identity more than a kinship with crush or date
or spouse or sweetheart for that matter
othermaciej, half my friends in serious relationships (married/engaged/multi-year) seem to be splitting up at the moment. I don't like it.
yakk: that's pretty depressing
hope you don't get caught up in that
the depth to which a crush can affect identity is not to be underestimated
othermaciej, thanks :) I don' t think I will
tantek: yes, but that's true of all values... parent, child...
all our relationships with others affect our identity
exactl
but that doesn't mean they *are* our identity
yes
correct
unless you're, like, co-dependent or something
othermaciej: I didn't say muse == identity ... as in the property of "identity"
rather, by declaring your inspirations/role models, etc... you declare you want to become
and that falls into the category of identity...
a muse and a role model are not the same thing at all
but a muse is closer to a role model than it is a crush or date
and in addition, "romantic" is such an overloaded word it's probably not a good category name
well a crush is just a muse for wanting to date the person in question :-)
a role model inspires you to want to be like them, a muse inspires you to an action or thought that the muse him/herself would not perform
(w/ implication of some sort of creative endeavor)
othermaciej: "well a crush is just a muse for wanting to date the person in question" <-- this isn't true
neither is the statement afterwards
bah
humbug
bewest: the first one was a joke, and the second I stand by
also
this whole topic is so totally unimportant
:)
yeah
The poet Sappho of Lesbos was paid the compliment of being called "the tenth Muse" by Plato.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muse
the muses actually /did/ the things they inspired
science, math, poetry, music...
muse is also a kind of terrible band
if you want to go with the classical definition then technically a Muse has to be a goddess
so much so that they stood is a symbol for the thing itself
Sappho was a real person
whereas nowadays we would accept the concept of muses that are male or mortal
sure, but Plato meant it as a metaphor
whereas nowadays we would mean it literally
[[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11204 * Tantek * (+14) added explicit TOC to make permalinking easier
thank you mfbot
chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
?def veeliam
veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com> and does webstuff with his quiddities. Really.
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
[[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11205 * Veeliam * (+265) Attempted addition of clarification of what muse means.
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
’morning all
Just a quick note before I get down to work that This Week in Microformats is late this week, I'm hoping to get it finished tonight but if anyone has anything they think should be included feel free to alert me to it somehow during the day (µf-discuss, private mail, or tag it ‘thisweekinmicroformats’ on delicious/magnolia)
BenWard, Tails was updated. I don't know if that qualifies for "woo woo" this week material, but just so you know.
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
[[User:CedricHuesler]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:CedricHuesler&diff=0&oldid=11206 * CedricHuesler * (+141)
Cloud is http://www.johnbreslin.com/
[[page-summary-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=11207 * AndyMabbett * (+65) response.
[[page-summary-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=11208 * AndyMabbett * (+29) make link texts unique
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
[[xfn-clarifications]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-clarifications&diff=0&oldid=11209 * AndyMabbett * (-10) testing fix for probelm with seciton-edit link alignments
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
[[hatom-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-faq&diff=0&oldid=11211 * Phae * (+455) Is hAtom intended to replace RSS or Atom -
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
[[xfn-clarifications]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-clarifications&diff=0&oldid=11212 * Tantek * (+10) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
[[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11213 * Tantek * (+404) added guidelines about not using punctuation in headings, not changing explicitly marked up headings to use wiki markup instead
[[page-summary-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=11214 * Tantek * (-94) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Ianloic
[[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11215 * Tantek * (+299) avoid changing heading text, avoid simple contradictory responses
[[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11216 * Tantek * (-265) Reverted edit of Veeliam, changed back to last version by Tantek
[[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11217 * Tantek * (+265) rolled back changes which changed links incorrectly, re-added new content that was added
[[xfn-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-faq&diff=0&oldid=11218 * Tantek * (+11) moved wiktionary defn of muse from top level see also to be a part of the specific FAQ answer for muse
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11219 * AndyMabbett * (-41) How to Play - remove unsigned opinon, per third item.
[[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11220 * AndyMabbett * (-10) How to Play - remove unsigned opinon, per third item.
[[accessibility]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=accessibility&diff=0&oldid=11221 * AndyMabbett * (+458) Accessibility of this wiki - duplicate link text unhelpful
[[page-summary-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=page-summary-formats&diff=0&oldid=11222 * AndyMabbett * (+87) restore answer
[[accessibility]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=accessibility&diff=0&oldid=11223 * AndyMabbett * (+107) Accessibility of this wiki - mark itenm as resolved -
[[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11224 * Tantek * (+51) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
[[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11225 * Tantek * (-1) previous revert restored removed content.
[[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11226 * Tantek * (+116) added positive suggestion to "avoid simple contradictory response" guideline.
[[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=11227 * Tantek * (+1) typo
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[[geo-extension-strawman]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-extension-strawman * AndyMabbett * (+1240)
[[luna]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna&diff=0&oldid=11228 * AndyMabbett * (+70) geo-extension-strawman
[[mars]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mars&diff=0&oldid=11229 * AndyMabbett * (+70) geo-extension-strawman
[[luna-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11230 * AndyMabbett * (+70) geo-extension-strawman
[[luna-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=luna-examples&diff=0&oldid=11231 * AndyMabbett * (+70) geo-extension-strawman
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11232 * AndyMabbett * (+199) geo-extension-strawman
[[geo-extension-strawman]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11233 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Geo Extension Straw-Man Proposal - typo
[[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11234 * AndyMabbett * (+324) Issues
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11235 * AndyMabbett * (+17) Drafts -
[[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11236 * AndyMabbett * (+78) Issues - another
[[geo-extension-strawman]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11237 * AndyMabbett * (+0) fmt
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11238 * Tantek * (-88) we don't need THREE links to geo-extension-strawman on the home page, moved to [[geo]] draft instead
[[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=11239 * Tantek * (+125) added [[geo-extension-strawman]] reference and Related Work section
[[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11240 * AndyMabbett * (+76) Issues - another
[[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11241 * AndyMabbett * (+94) Issues - another
bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
Is it legal for an hReview to have fn and item specified on the same node? like <span class="item fn">Name of item</span>
mkaply, no FN needs to be a child of ITEM
briansuda: I wasn't sure - I had found a case of that on a web page and was handling it in my code. I'll make that an error case
[[hresume-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-feedback&diff=0&oldid=11242 * Tim White * (+208) General Comments -
Found it - http://www.pacificspirit.com/Restaurants-Vancouver.html has every item specified like that - <a class="fn org url item" href="http://www.akbarsown.com/">
that page is not valid
corkd.com is a good example of valid markup
That page is linked from microformats.org hReviews in the wild :)
we need to go through on a regular basis and verify the pages...
the best thing to do is make a note below/behind with the date that says something like "invalid item/fn mark-up 2006-12-11"
actually, those don't have dtreviewed either which is required as well, right?
[[hreview-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11243 * MikeKaply * (+83) New Examples -
no, (i think) the only thing that is required is the ITEM/FN
briansuda: need to fix the microformats cheat sheet then. It has dtreviewed as required
i just had a look and it wasn't, what is the r## in the lower right-hand corner?
r10 is the newest
cut off when I printed :)
veeliam is William Lawrence <http://zaxbypass.com> and does webstuff with his quiddities. Really.
[[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11244 * AndyMabbett * (+23) Issues -
[[geo-extension-strawman]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11245 * AndyMabbett * (+10) Notes -
Whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
[[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=11246 * AndyMabbett * (+26) Related Work - clarify
[[Template:geo-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=11247 * AndyMabbett * (+131) add geo-extension-strawman
[[Template:geo-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=11248 * AndyMabbett * (-26) add geo-extension-strawman
[[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11249 * AndyMabbett * (+65) Geo Extension Straw-Man Proposal - expand intro
[[geo-extension-strawman]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=11250 * AndyMabbett * (+10) Geo Extension Straw-Man Proposal -
I can see on the wiki that there were discussions about a job listing microformat... have those stalled? we have a use for it, and have sketched out our own ideas if they're useful at this point...
so if on an hreview someone specifices a class=rating", class="best" and/or class"worst", which takes precedence? or is that bad markup?
Whafro, the job listing discussions were subsumed into general listing discussions see the hlisting-proposal
mkaply what do you mean? they all specify different things
tantek: I thought worst caused rating to be set to 1.0 and best caused rating to be set to 5.0
rating. optional. fixed point integer [1.0-5.0], with optional alternate worst (default:1.0) and/or best (default:5.0), also fixed point integers, and explicit value.
rating is the rating, best is the value which indicates the best possible rating, worst is the value which indicates the worst possible rating. (tautological, I know)
worst and best indicate the range
whereas rating indicates the value
within that range
ah. The word range isn't used in that statement at all. I get it now :)
thank you
tantek: I'd seen that, but it doesn't seem that hlisting has anywhere close to the amount of data needed for anything beyond craigslist-style job listings... perhaps I'm missing something, though
mkaply you're right, that could be improved
whafro - if you think more data is needed - then perhaps provide some research that demonstrates that with real world examples
otherwise, cragslist-style job listings is kinda it - and even then hListing proposal does more than that, with tags etc.
well, the cases listed in the job-listing brainstorming had many more types of data
I'll dig through mailing list archives and see if I can piece together that conversation so as not to waste time ;)
mkaply, you're right that the word "range" is not used, however, the parenthetical example hints at it at least: (e.g. 6 from 0-10)
in the definition of the 'rating' property
tantek: Agreed. I think it might be more useful to split out worst and best in the example though to show them as separate classes they kind of disappear in that sentence
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=11251 * Tantek * (+29) clarified that best/worst are for setting the range of a rating value
mkaply, they are less used classes, and only in the context of when a rating itself is used, thus they are included inline to avoid crowding the top level list of properties
Whafro - not job-listing-brainstorming, but job-listing-examples
right, but -brainstorming consolidates the fields used in -examples, no?
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
Whafro - it *should* but often brainstorming includes things from left-field, or things from rarely seen examples, which violates the 80/20 rule of constructing microformats from commonalities found in real world examples.
the *-examples pages themselves are supposed to extract and document the implied schema from each example, and perhaps summarize at the bottom. See http://microformats.org/wiki/examples for more on that.
tantek: the last major discussion that I see on the list seemed to end inconclusively, with several people interested in moving forward but no one doing so, and no clear conclusion that hlisting covered this need (the gist seemed counter to that idea)... is this something worth reviving, or am I missing something else?
I think it is worth reviving - it would make a nice counterpart to hResume, and perhaps can even build on hListing.
bbiab
word
well this is frustrating. I have found many sites that have the rating embedded in the description as text. So when you get the textContent of the desceription, you get some stars as well. argh
making item and fn the same (not fn as a child) is quite common
mkaply, it might be popular, but it is wrong - i think alot of folks implemented things before the creator and wiki pages were fully updated
briansuda: I just went through the first half of the in the wild pages and I'd say about 75% are tagged incorrect
for hreviews
and this inclusion of the rating in description is going to drive me insane. I'm wondering if I should special case it and remove it
you should mark it on the wiki
briansuda: planning to.
i wouldn't make any 'special case'
I should include all .textContent of class="description" in the description, right? I'm not supposed to exclude subtags if I am parsing it?
yes you should
The fn/item thing must have been allowed at one time. A Lot of early hReviews appear to have that pattern
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
is there a relationship between hAtom `author` and hCard?
mkaply, i think early on there was an issue with the hreview-creator which as since been sorted and/or one bad example rippled across alot of implementation across the net
briansuda: A very lot. Wait until you see the page :(
i know, i have done my homework awhile ago for a GRDDL demo - i only found corkd.com as the only good source
[[hreview-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=11252 * MikeKaply * (+1314) New Examples -
could anyone confirm that the hcard photo image is broken under Firefox Tails here http://www.csarven.ca ? (its on #footer address)
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
Tails isn't working at all for me on your page. I did discover I need to handle tabs better in names (as does tails export)
sometimes i have to click on the mf icon twice to show it properly. in any case, im not sure why the image shows broken even though the resource exists
csarven: is tails yours?
pardon?
I was wondering if you were the author. Is the problem in Firefox tails or on your web page?
no im not the author of Tails
i am questioning if the problem exists solely on my Tails extensions or if there is an mf implementation error on my part
ah
will try reinstalling Tails
csarven, tails has been updated
0.3.6 ?
and your card image is broken
yes.
http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard
i get the same result. i do not know why
his image appears
i'm using 0.3.6
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11253 * MarBry * (-3) Tools, Test Cases and Additional Research -
vmarks is in NC
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11254 * AndyMabbett * (+3) rv. linkspam ----------------------------------------------???
csarven, did you get your image to appear?
no i couldn't. the image is not physically broken and the mf afaik is okay. there must be something im overlooking
it was working before
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