Timestamps are in UTC.
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[[openid-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=openid-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11096 * Tantek * (+10)
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=11097 * RyanKing * (+70) Ryan -
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=11098 * BienDavid * (+49) added WikiMusicGuide
kingryan is ryan king
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[[Special:Log/rights]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/rights&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) Rights for user "User:ScottReynen " set "": +sysop
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
Cloud is http://www.johnbreslin.com/
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
[[faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=11099 * IwaiMasaharu * (-3) Q: ''Who controls microformats?'' - fix redundancy markup
julianstahnke: What's the last.fm IRC server/channel ?
irc.audioscrobbler.com channel #audioscrobbler
the public one, that is ;)
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
[[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=11100 * Jax * (+79)
Whafro is M. Jackson Wilkinson, a designer/developer for Grassroots Enterprise in Washington, DC
[[User:CedricHuesler]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:CedricHuesler&diff=0&oldid=11101 * CedricHuesler * (+189) Cédric Hüsler -
[[User:CedricHuesler]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:CedricHuesler&diff=0&oldid=11102 * CedricHuesler * (+0) Cédric Hüsler -
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
[[hresume]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=11103 * AndyMabbett * (+4) move last addition to top of list
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
kensanata is blogging at http://www.emacswiki.org/alex/
kingryan is ryan king
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
[[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11104 * Mike * (+508) added working straw schema outline to focus discussion
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
in the case of entry-title for hAtom, what would be the intention as far as `title` and `h1` is concerned?
so, if xx-small, x-small...large, x-large, etc. represents size, what's an analogue that might represent importance or weight?
for what? other than em/strong/headers etc.?
what'dya mean, csarven?
for a series of class names that would indicate a level of emphasis/importance...
still doing tag clouds?
the only thing that springs to mind that you'd do similar to font sizing with xx-small etc. is the font-weight?
yeah... at a lock with client folk who don't think clients could keep nested em elements straight, and engineers who just want to make <span class="xx-large">...
Whafro: what's wrong with using <em> or <strong>
?
we talked about using those the other day
... which uses nested <em>'s
the problem with using class names instead of using hte nested ems technique is of course the actual mark-up has no particular emphasis
I'm completely down with nested <em>s, but the client-facing people think that's gonna be a nightmare for our more dangerous clients
Phae entry-title could use the title element value or h1 value
so anything not looking at it visually just won't "get it"
i.e. without CSS
its the only thing about differntiating between title and h1.. they are similar but different
im not sure what the intention was for entry-title
Using the title element seems.. unusual.
entry-title should be a header, as a rule.
right now im using h1 value
the heading of the entry.
right.
yes.. would work but unusual :)
or i would imagine it would.. if html has hfeed and hentry is on head
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
sure. if your page only will ever have one "entry" in it.
hey drew :D
hey Phae
yeah, colloquy is noisy like that
i just had a thought whilst doing the dishes
uhoh.
we have XFN for expressing basic relationships between people
right.
my thought was how about a system for expressing basic relationships between a person and a company
kind of like XHTML Professional Network or something
hcard role?
a company map?
<a href="http://yahoo.com" rev="employee">Yahoo!</a>
oh. you mean super simple.
x is a member of y?
rather than also going into departments and authoritive statements
or <a href="http://google.com/" rev="customer">Google</a>
I believe there's been some research into this on the wiki
awesome
the only reason this peaks my interest is a developer was puzzling me on the best way to present a tree of people that work in a company
a very large one as it happens (about 50,000 people :( )
that gets really interesting when you can search on references to a company from its customers etc... combine with votelinks for all kinds of fun
ooo
xfn/rel/rev mashups?
but also <a href="http://bigcorp.com" rev="shareholder">Big Corp are going amazing things lately</a> ...
how do you mean Phae?
drew, there is a simple proposal for "groups" (which encapsulates, companies, organizations etc.)
on the wiki
consisting of two new rel values
well... we've all said - wouldn't it be cool to use xfn with something...
rel="member"
and rel="group"
fwiw, my friend eran did some research, but not the mf wiki: http://hellonline.com/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/wiki/XMF
i think votelinks and no-follow would be good for getting better search results
he created his own dialect for a school project
where an individual can claim to belong to a "group" by linking to the URL of that group with rel="group"
and a group can claim certain people are members by linking to their URLs with rel="member"
given the microformat way of starting as simple as possible, this seemed like the right place to start
also, a reminder to everyone..... we may very well lose @rev in HTML5, so we need to be careful about relying on it
i don't know of anyone using this in practice yet
makes sense
has a variety of uses
only dependence on @rev right now is VoteLinks
which has not seen much uptake anyway
what's the justification for removing rev? just lack of general usage?
I tend to agree with Hixie regarding the author confusion of "rev"
oh.
Phae: it's confusing to people and isn't used properly
ok.
Phae, both lack of general usage, and misusage when it is used
with ya
so basically, rev is either useless or confusing or both
people use <link rev='stylesheet' ... />
oh :/
Hixie's research has shown that it just doesn't work
are there any talks about a replacement attribute?
rev is a perfect example of an "academically correct" feature that wrong for humans
so how would you do rev="member" without @rev?
you do rel="group"
that's the point of having the two values
you point to the thing, and name it relative to you
join whatwg
i'm on whatwg.. I just haven't noticed that particular discussion
jcgregorio: who's that pointed at? I think we're all on the mailing list
d'oh sorry
I could say <a href="http://technorati.com" rel="group">...
Phae: it was awhile ago
that was supposed to begin with a '/'
it may be from before my subscription
nevermind!
lol jcgregorio, I though you were talking to us, not freenode
oh!!
I get it.
Sorry jcgregorio :)
drew, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/group-brainstorming
i'm there tantek :)
I'm not sure a group is the same thing as a relationship with company
what'd be the difference?
drew, indeed a quadrilateral is not the same thing as a square
take the example of rev="customer" ... i may be in a group of customers conceptually, but it makes no sense to link with rel="group"
you just said "group of customers"
drew, i suggest forcing yourself to think only in terms of rel
quite, ryan's got it
is it a group or not? :D
is there anything like 'a member' ?
you're not talking about "yahoo" in that respect
and coming up with appropriate terms for such
you're talking about the "customers of yahoo"
i predict that use of rev will make even the discussion harder to follow
a member covers the group and the relationship
we could express all sorts of crap with rel="group" and lose the data we were trying to capture
group *is* the relationship
drew, the point is to start simple
rather than trying to capture all the data
but then you can be so simple as to capture nothing of use
does it depend on usuage? if a customer is talking about yahoo, would they be reviewing yahoo, so the rest of the vital information making this person a customer, rather than an employee, within the hreview or hcard information?
usage*
drew, the point is to push it to that point
be so simple that it seems like it is useless
then you have reached the right point
to build from
until you do that
you don't know that you have made it "as simple as possible"
[[faq-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-ja&diff=0&oldid=11105 * IwaiMasaharu * (+66) Q. ''Are there issues with page styling when specific class values are used?'' - 訳したけど怪しいかも
in essence, Einstein's quote was descriptive, not prescriptive
reductio ad simplico
the precise quote is
"The supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience." - http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein
This is usually paraphrased to: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.
that describes the goal, but not how to get there
rel="group" seems simpler than possible for the kind of relationships i had in mind
in order to find "as simple as possible", I assert that you have to make something *too simple* first
and then iterate and add what is necessary
drewinthehead- why not think up a couple examples and see if it can be done? might be fun.
with what we've got +rel-group stuffs
but also if we're abandoning ship on @rev then the concept doesn't really work anyway. the @rel version would be too much of a mindf* to use.
heh
drewinthehead - you are welcome to do research and add to http://microformats.org/wiki/group-examples
little point, it seems. i suck at this .. i'll stick to implementation :)
nooo.. i just think we're talking about being simple too much.
talking of simple. i wish we had a gender state somewhere.. then i could do geneaology
Phae, consider using tags for that
hmmm
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11106 * DavidJanes * (+84) A better explanation
[[item-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11107 * DavidJanes * (-1) Thing Brainstorming -
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11108 * DavidJanes * (+543) Added the goal of this uF
drewinthehead: by chance have any of my emails about microformat firefox extensions got to you? I know you are probably busy at XML 2006
hey mkaply ... yes, i've got them in my guilt-inducing to-do folder
heh
drewinthehead: Think of it as me taking work away from you :)
doh!
:D
haha
probably
Mozilla wanted me to come up with a clever name - the Microformats Toolbra
although a few more mincepies and you never know
drewinthehead: All I have to go on is your image and at this point I have that functionality and quite a bit more.
Mozilla wants to put the extension up on labs.mozilla.org next week (Friday) and probably talk about microformats on some posts during the week
what is the proper term for text that is a caption/pullquote/summary that is used to draw readers attention which is commonly found in magazines
ok, i need to find out what's been happening at work this week (i've been out of the office) wrt my toolbar, mkaply
pull-quote, I believe
I'm trying to think what my company (a marketing one) calls them
drewinthehead: Is that something being done by a larger group? Not just yourself?
pull-quote/call out
I've never seen/heard it called a call out
i have
m'k
i'm not saying it's wrong.. i think it'll vary a little. some terms are jargon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pull-quote
i'm the main person working on it, but I know Chris Heilmann has been evangelising our work internally in the last week. i work on search innovation.
and i don't have a print publisher to pester right now for the technical term
pull-quote is good, Phae, csarven
drewinthehead: I just don't want to steal your thunder. I already have an Q/A about what this toolbar has to do with your toolbar :)
I've designed it to be very extensible, so any yahoo services can simply be dropped in.
mkaply: i'm not sure how the politics work at Yahoo. if this were just my personal project i'd be very keen to work together
for anyone interested in Typography: http://www.proximasoftware.com/fontexpert/terms/index.html
drewinthehead: was the plan for this to be an official yahoo toolbar?
no point in having competing products if we could pool resources and have a single, high quality choice
to be honest, i'm not sure what's happened in this last week so i don't know the answer to that
thanks csarven
drewinthehead: yeah, I assumed no comment :)
drew's yer man.
i've never done a toolbar before.
this was a hackday project
drewinthehead: ah. That makes sense then :)
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11109 * DavidJanes * (+450) Clarified and corrected the Rationale for an item microformat
So I guess the main thing you might want to take back then if other folk care is that there is other microformat toolbar work going on that is going to be released next Friday most likely
I'd be more than happy to include many connections to yahoo content :)
I already have delicious, flickr, yahoo calendar
that i can help you with
figuring out the URL syntax for yahoo calendar took a little bit
And I still can't figure out why my multiday events lose a day at yahoo
yeah, here too ;)
yahoo address book is another good one to add, as yahoo mail uses it
[[issues]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/issues * AndyMabbett * (+30) redirect (should this be a disambiguation page, listing all *-issues?)
and yahoo mail is the biggest single provider of mail globally
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11110 * DavidJanes * (+27) Notes -
they lose a day at google too :)
drewinthehead: I'd love to provide that. Do they have an easy URL for adding contacts? I couldn't find anything for gmail
[[issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=issues&diff=0&oldid=11111 * AndyMabbett * (+2)
[[issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=issues&diff=0&oldid=11112 * AndyMabbett * (+1)
i'll dig out what i have, mkaply
And I really liked your bookmarking idea - I added that - so any microformat can be bookmarked as a data URL (not sure if that is how you did it)
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11113 * DavidJanes * (+9) Note the current existance of hItem
I also discovered bugs the microformats on eventful and upcoming that I have reported, plus I found quite a few invalid hReviews
validation has been a difficult hurdle.
well, IS.
Phae: I think a toolbar will help. I actually allow display "invalid format" and when you click it, I tell you why it is invalid (for the ones I can figure out)
certainly.
it'll be great.
[[microformats-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microformats-issues&diff=0&oldid=11114 * AndyMabbett * (+483) IP rights (per discussion list)
the upcoming stuff is silly. The put the word "Description" in the class=description which makes it kind of silly when you query it
i'd like to work on a common javascript library for parsing microformats, as it'd help for all this stuff.
were the upcoming.org guys responsive, mkaply?
drewinthehead: We had some discussions on their forum and I think they are thinking about what I said.
The eventful guys fixed both bugs I reported within a few hours.
The upcoming stuff wasn't as obviously a "bug"
cool. they're all good guys
[[implied-hcard-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/implied-hcard-examples * RCanine * (+3330)
I usually report eventful bugs by saying 'hober' in this channel
but he's not around right now :D
drewinthehead: A library would be nice. I ended up using Javascript for everything, even vcard/ics export since I found cases where the XSLT that Brian Suda did didn't work in some cases
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11115 * DavidJanes * (-1) hThing-based microformats -
But my JS needs a lot of work - I'm certainly not getting everything in the microformat
my toolbar isn't at all robust, mkaply. it screws up quite a lot on kingryan's site
I got king ryan's site down - thanks for that testcase :)
drewinthehead: Should I just send you what I have? Or do you want to wait until it is released on Friday
yeah, send it along :)
So the email address I figured out was correct then. That's good.
You've done the best job I have ever seen of keeping your email addrses off of the web
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11116 * DavidJanes * (+20) What this microformat should look like
[[implied-hcard-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implied-hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=0 * AndyMabbett * (+3330) implied-hcard-examples moved to hcard-implied-examples
mkaply: i try :)
[[implied-hcard]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/implied-hcard * RCanine * (+1218)
[[Template:hcard-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcard-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=11117 * AndyMabbett * (+35) hcard-implied-examples
[[hcard-implied]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implied * AndyMabbett * (+36) redirect
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11118 * DavidJanes * (+85) [[DavidJanes]] -
Anyone else want an early copy of the toolbar while I'm sending it out?
sure.
[[implied-hcard-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/implied-hcard-brainstorming * RCanine * (+982)
[[hcard-implied-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implied-examples&diff=0&oldid=11119 * RCanine * (+87)
sent
drewinthehead: I'll do the rest of the yahoo integration next week. Thanks. Any idea if there is a way to send Yahoo Maps a latitude longitude URL?
for geo lookups?
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11120 * DavidJanes * (-50) Removed reference to alternates, doesn't make sense
i don't think there is, mkaply. I couldn't find a way, anyway
Catspaw is Michelle Levesque
Right now I'm doing reverse lookups on the lat/long and displaying an approximate address on the menu (which is never right) - but when I send it to google maps, I use the real latitude/longitude
ah. beautiful
[[implied-hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implied-hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11121 * RCanine * (+277)
the add to google calendar thing is nice. i do that currently using the option on the upcoming event page, but it's nice to see that i could do the same so quickly from another hEvent somewhere
I like having one place to go for all my calendar interaction.
(the toolbar)
yeah. it's a simple thing, but it's the most regular 'format I'm using with an application at the moment.
so it's nice :)
One thing I REALLY don't like about upcoming is that all of the events on their front page are vevents, but they have no dates with them
i noticed it didn't pick it up until i went into an event
I believe that's technically a violation of the spec, so I should probably mark those as errors
yeah, they should have dates
I see 12 events on the front page.
Phae: what do you think of the toolbar in general?
maybe i didn't notice it deepen in colour. i'll look again.
Phae: developer feature you might not have noticed - hold down ctrl when you click on an event
I rather like being able to flick it from action/uf - from an implementor point of view it's handy
ok
ctrl shows the source
oh. I never go to the upcoming.org main page. I'm always logged in so I get my personalised home
and I don't pick up any events that way
shift shows my internal JS representation
oh cool
I was kind of aiming it at develoeprs and Users
yeah, that's useful
Cloud_ is Cloud
I'd appreciate any feedback you have. I'm hoping to put a lot more work into it next week.
early day today. Christmas party. Thanks for all the info!
i'll play with it over the next day or two and drop you a note :D
ah, cool. have fun!
And any creative idea to do with hReviews, please let me know
what DO people do with hReviewS?
i found linking product reviews to an Answers search was good, but not for event reviews
[[implied-hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implied-hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=0 * AndyMabbett * (+1259) implied-hcard-brainstorming moved to hcard-implied-brainstorming
i was thinking in an extraction kind of way
they're only really useful in a linking to way
reviews are opinions, and in that way, quite useful
of course.
reviews are also ways to tag other things on the web
but in regards to a toolbar and doing something other than linking to them
except for validating and finding in the first place, of course
it's fine. it's not important... i was just wondering if i was being dense and missing an obvious use
[[hcard-implied-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implied-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11122 * AndyMabbett * (+318) Links to vcards
[[hcard-implied-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implied-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11123 * AndyMabbett * (+2)
in the broadest sense, hReviews are 3rd party information about things on the web
so from a toolbar sense, perhaps if the toolbar would show you reviews of the page (item represented by the page) you were looking at, that would be interesting
yeah, that's fine. i'm with that.
[[Template:hcard-related-pages]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcard-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=11124 * AndyMabbett * (-9)
[[Template:hcard-related-pages]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:hcard-related-pages&diff=0&oldid=11125 * AndyMabbett * (+67) definition
[[implied-hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implied-hcard&diff=0&oldid=11126 * AndyMabbett * (+0) bypass redirects
veeliam is William Lawrence of Quiddities Dev out of Santa Cruz and he does something at http://zaxbypass.com and here and there
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11127 * DavidJanes * (+92) [[DavidJanes]] -
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11128 * DavidJanes * (+1081) Tier 1: in use in microformats today -
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11129 * DavidJanes * (+169) Tier 4: specific to particular thing-types -
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=11130 * DavidJanes * (+37) Exploratory Discussions -
[[item-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-examples&diff=0&oldid=11131 * DavidJanes * (+326) explicitly reference the process
[[item-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-examples&diff=0&oldid=11132 * DavidJanes * (+45) Added references to proposed microformats
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11133 * DavidJanes * (+194) Explicity show attributes in use
[[item-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=item-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=11134 * DavidJanes * (-280) removed code clippings
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
[[hcard-implied]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implied&diff=0&oldid=11135 * RyanKing * (-36) removing redirect (http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-December/007535.html)
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) deleted "hcard-implied": content before blanking was: '#REDIRECT:[[hcard-implied-examples]]'
[[implied-hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implied-hcard&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+1218) implied-hcard moved to hcard-implied
[[hcard-implied]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implied&diff=0&oldid=11136 * AndyMabbett * (+10) link
[[hcard-implied-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-implied-examples&diff=0&oldid=11137 * AndyMabbett * (+0) links
wow, andy's fast
must be hitting refresh on http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
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