Timestamps are in UTC.
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/friedster/197232736/#comment72157594210310103
go get 'em! hCalender != iCalendar
it's odd too
supporting hCalendar is both less work and more useful than supporting iCalendar
ah well
the only downside, is that you have to login to backpack. if you were to pass that to feeds.technorti it would fail because your server hasn't authenticated
it works well with Tails, but i think tails export just passes it to the webservice
i'm not sure there is a complete client-side converter
they could always run their own install of X2V
that's the point
very true.
yeah
and they should
it's effed up that i can't have one login across my backpacks and basecamps
nor can i easily transfer company info from one to another
openID *cough* *cough*
already on it
btw
seen the $5000 bounty for implementing openid?
if someone implements it for mediawiki
or the microformats.org wiki...
someone's cashin' in
there is a media wiki version in progress
probably
DanC had a link a few days ago about that...
oh?
huh
btw, any thoughts about lucas gonze's media format?
http://www.windley.com/archives/2006/04/openid_and_medi.shtml looks like there is a media wiki patch for openID
no, not much thought about the media-format at the moment... still trying to catch-up on other work
did you see his implementation?
also, thoughts on Popup Politicians?
i did have a look at popup politicians
while it isn't my cup of tea, i think it makes things VERY simple for people to mention a work, tag it, and have their javascript do the rest
yeah
i think it's a great proof of concept
I do like that approach, javascript decorators
still not certain about whether rel-tag makes sense
or hcard
but it's good nonetheless
it kinda or reminds me of those sites that add hyperlinks after the page loads to key words sprinkled throughout, or to link to definitions
yeah
without looking at their JS file, i bet that is their
i hate that
"hooK"
with google maps "bubbles" becoming popular, i think more people will be used to this, and it degrades nicely
well, actually, were does the link go?
yeah
and how is this not XSS?
or is it?
but a *good* use?
well, you are including it in your own code so you'd best know what you are doing.
technorati claim and google ad words work in a similar way
it is possible that after you have already linked to the .js on their server, they COULD swap the code to do something malicious.
the other option is to copy it and save it locally
google analytics works in this fashion
mm
this could also be done as an extension?
a browser extension?
where you list trusted sources for the "bubble fill" content
sure
like anywhere that you see rel-tag
you hover over and it pulls in results from your tagspace
sure, you could have it prefetch the data from wikipedia or another source and display it in the bubble on hover
that is basically how Tails works, it finds the data and reformats it.
only this would find rel-tag and go fetch and style the data from a trusted source(s) and display them either in a bubble or tab, etc.
boo
hiss
AdamCraven: what's up fella?
haha, I was just letting briansuda's pun not go unnoticed
XSS (i think of it as) more like SQL injection, where in a form you manage to add some sort of javascript.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XSS
mm
tantek what're your thoughts on the hResume stuff?
factoryjoe, could you be more specific than "stuff"?
the wordpress plugin
have you looked at it?
haven't had a chance
I think Ryan has taken a look though.
Alex here - we will release an updated WP plugin tomorrow.
hi alex!
Adding country code for all of the non-US folks (got like 20 emails from people outside of the US hating on us for forgetting them). Also, Fred is cleaning CSS. Hi Tantek!
Chris: get a chance to install the plugin? Thoughts, suggestions, comments?
Emurse is getting us a URI to put in the pinger as a default...
alexandermuse: not yet
Oh, we received pings from 48 installs today - i.e. atleast 48 blogs now pinging us with hResume markup.
nice
alexander, is the plugin pinging resumes.pingerati.net ?
if you can email me where you want pings sent to, I can also make sure that pingerati sends them on
Please make sure the plugin is pinging resumes.pingerati.net to make sure the pings are distributed.
[[hreview-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-brainstorming * Tantek * (+1911) separated from review-brainstorming
Tantek - the coder said resumes.pingerati.net would not accept xml-rpc pings. He suggest it was only Gets...
that's by design
right
there is no reason to do xml-rpc
whats up guys
it's more work for no reason
I understand, but when I wrote the spec...
what spec?
for the coder.
I included it and not http get.
So it was hard enough getting it done per the spec.
Perhaps in our next version.
that would be great
hey tantek, have some quick questions for ya
is the plugin open source?
if you have a moment
yep
GPL
davemorin, please go ahead with your microformats questions, you don't necessarily need me to answer them :)
alexander, thanks that helps
so anyone in the community could add that then?
its more about technorati
the get ping support
messina told me to ping you here
we met at that sushi place a few weeks back
:)
Tantek: if we ping Technorati will it automatically forward the info to pingerati? Eric told me the FAQ suggested that instead. I think he included the Technorati URI in the pinger.
no the key is to ping resumes.pingerati.net
which will then distribute the pings to technorati and anyone else who wants resume pings
that's the whole point of pingerati
to be a distributor of microformats updates pings
that's the same thign i'm having problems with
my blog isnt updating in technorati listings
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
[[hreview-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7751 * Tantek * (+1486) added a few thoughts for hReview 0.4
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=7752 * Tantek * (+100) added hReview brainstorming link
[[review-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7753 * Tantek * (-1632) moved hReview iteration and brainstorming to its own page
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7754 * Victor Welling * (+176) Examples in the wild -
deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
morning
evening
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
tantek: i've been using the colloquy 2.1 beta for a couple of weeks and have found it to be more stable than the stable release.
Hey drew, I was thinking about this URL first idea, for say commenting, to fetch and hCards from the URL pasted, and a few issues.
oh, great
:D
what issues did you come up with?
Well, not technical issues, more theory related.
they're the best ;)
It might be worth considering how that might play with OpenID. After all, in OpenID logins you're already providing a URL that is 'you'
First off, the page they might provide might not be the root, which is often used, instead a contact page (simply to grab the hCard details). If you put in a non-root URL, would it replace the comment URL with a URL you present in the hCard?
i think that's a UI issue ... we need to develop a method of letting the user know what might happen
mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
OK, the other issue is a storage one. Say for your URL or avatar, would these be requested every time your comment is shown? gravatars pull from a central resource, so if I change it, it will update on sites. However, other details are usually stored in DBs, so aren't easily globally changed...
perhaps there's a middle ground - cache the details until that person next posts
(that's what gravatars should do imho)
seeing as comments are timestamped, should they update at all?
'lo
i think that would be ok, McNulty
[[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=7755 * JoeAndrieu * (+1135) What are microformats? -
the historic record is of the comment, not the contact details that go along with it
'lo Whiskey_M
[[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=7756 * JoeAndrieu * (-4) Joe Andrieu -
hey, that's cool.
back in an hour or so
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
drewinthehead - I used to post on a messageboard where, every time you changed your .sig, it changed all the historical posts and it really pissed off the users
I think people like the historical record...
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
drewinthehead - I used to post on a messageboard where, every time you changed your .sig,
it changed all the historical posts and it really pissed off the users
I think people like the historical record, certainly for avatar images
worth researching if gravatar has had similar issues
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
mornin' Phae
McNulty: it could be an option, import vs subscribe
Good morning Drew.
drewinthehead - there seem to be two issues that I might be conflating
1 - If a user gives me a URL, do I fetch it once or every time
2 - If a user re-submits their URL, do I update their historical data
actually 2 is more like
2 - if the data at the URL changes, do I apply the change to their historical data?
My preference would be 1 - every time, 2 - only apply changes to new comments/whatever
1 - store. anything else is http lunacy
drewinthehead - hm
it's a shame that there's no way of having an HTTP 'if hCard not modified since'
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
i suppose you could offer the user an 'update my details' interface in their prefs somewhere
else, if a thread has, say 30 comments, that's <=30 URLs to fetch and parse per page load
yes, that was my thinking behind only updating when they post
presume they want to update and just take the queue next time they interact
cue.
i actually think gravatars are http lunacy, too
Sometimes I wish I was smart enough not to have to use wordpress.
Gravatars are sort of neat. It's silly, but it's easy to be someone else with them though.
gravatars are cool .. but they should be cached
unfortunately the gravatar service doesn't make that easy to implement
I looked at a gravatar plugin, and I thought it had an option to cache.
oh, I meant update each time they post, rather than each page load
I just meant if they have a persistent user account, do you update when they post or update when they *register*
Register.
It's unusual to see update settings when oyu post.
ah, sorry McNulty - i thought you were talking about every page load
but if it's just an automatic background reimport of your hCard i think it could be done each time they post
anyone got any bright ideas how gravatar could be replaced with hCard@photo?
What's the problem with doing that?
gravatars have the advantages of: a) known size, b) rated, c) don't require the user to have a website
aye
hCard has the advantages of being: a) open, b) distributed
mm.. perfect couple. send them down the aisle.
we can tackle the known size bit, as hCard photos use (duh) the html img element, which has width and height data .. so we can resize and store
ratings are trickier ...
how does the ratings thing work then? Is the image just labeled as such?
yes, it uses the US movie ratings system
users submit a gravatar, and the gravatar lot have a team of moderators
it's useful - i have a site that uses gravatars that i no way want anything not family-friendly on, and this gives me that
Yeah, I know that, but how does it let whoever is grabbing the gravatars know what is and what isn't safe?
Is it all done at their end?
ah, becuase you make a request with a maximum rating you want as a param
so it returns your default image if the user is above that rating
so it's done as part of the GET for the image
okay.
(sorry, wasn't attempting to patronise .. I do that *all* the time .. i'm missing some important brain part)
no, it's fine. I know you're not. I didn't phrase my query too well.
Uh, okay. So I got that. What's the problem with hCards and ratings then/
I'm assuming you don't want to store an x-rated photo in your outlook contacts anyway.
well ... ;)
someone might!
in a perfect world i'd like to think users could rate their own images
Right. I see. You want to be able to serve all pictures, regardless of ratings, to some users.
That's not gonna happen with gravatars atm.
it would probably be naïve to assume that people won't want to have x-rated avatars for some purposes
I agree.
heh
We see gravatars on our nice family-friendly blogs, but I'm sure they're used on much more "specialist" sites too :)
I don't see how it would work with the way gravatars currently do, since the x-rated images never even make it to the host site. Gravatars would need new functionality to let people log in and change what they receive or something.
you've lost me slightly
Phae - you mean to let users set their own acceptable level
no, nm.. I just don't get how you're going to let some people see all images.
yes, MarkB
oops. mcknut
lol. too many mc!
What're the chances.
with gravatars, you get the X-rated ones by requesting a max-rating of X
The owner of the site does, yeah. Me, visiting your site, with family rating, can't get the x-rated images. Right?
I guess you'll just have to live with it Phae ;-)
heh. I think I'll cope, personally.
no, the rating thing goes of the preference off the site implementing gravatars, not any individual visiting the site (if i get what you're saying)
Yeah, we're saying the same thing now, I think.
If your site has user login, a logged-in user could have a 'show me the pr0n' checkbox
that's an interesting thought though .. hmm
you just set the SRC of the images right
I thought what you wanted was to allow users to get whichever images THEY wanted, which as it stands, can't be done.
no, but i do want that now :)
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, McNulty, but gravatars don't have that option as it stands.
hehe drew. :P
and a pony, please
I think I can organise a pony.
yay!
so do you think users can be trusted to rate their own images?
nope
no.
I don't think the ratings system should be changed.
It seems to work nicely how it is.
It's one of those things that would benefit from a global web login, but since that's years off... :( Say on my site, you can sign up, so you can save your details or submit whatever you like. It'd be nice, if on signup, you could set what gravatar rating you wanted to view.
If on signin* even.
so that requires a centralised element still ...?
Yeah, I guess. I can't say I'd probably bother. I have to remember enough logins and stuff as it is, without signing up for every blog I read.
It's not a pretty solution.
it's like expecting all the porno sites to jump to the .xxx TLD
at the moment, we're all screwed when gravatar.com falls over
Yeah.
(which happens quite often)
To be honest, I can't see a nice solution.
Phae - the login thing is partly solved by OpenID
I think we're stuck with whatever the site owner chooses to solve.
solve* serve
man.
It lets you have a unified login for most loosely secured situations
Yeah, indeed.
Seeing as your username is a URL, a service could get all your hCard info etc. from that location
in one fell swoop
For OpenID? Not everyone that submits has a URL though.
is that right? I thought that was how it works
In normal blog response circumstances.
heh
My mother for example, comments on my blog sometimes.. she only includes an email address, and isn't about to use OpenID
oh
yeah with you
But, why not?
Because my mum only comments on my blog as far as I know.
It's an extra level of complication for her, probably.
I dunno. I could force her. :)
But putting a URL to her hCard isn't?
:-)
what are we talking about again?
lol. I don't know! Back track.
My mother isn't important.
aw, don't say that
heh
We were loosely talking about people providing a URL for their identity when commenting
I like to think in real-world examples, and of people not like us, tha'ts all. :)
and I was saying that you do that with OpenID anyhow
Aye, okay.
IF your mom doesn't have an OpenID
you can offer her a login for your blog, that would then allow her to post on other blogs using that as her OpenID
I guess.
and provide an hCard with whatever registration details you asked her for when she registered
Okay, fair do's.
phae.com/mrsphae
hehe.
Still need to modify gravatars service.
are there any parallels to the ratings problem?
hmm
what if you could get your image rated and get back some kind of magic key that could be checked with any number of servers
Explain.
that was about as in depth as i'd got ;)
heh
so i send my avatar to get rated
Yeah.. and you get a pretty key...
and the key does what/
i get back a rating and a magic string
right
i add that to my hCard somehow
when i comment on someone's blog, my hCard and avatar gets fetched
<img src="http://myratingservice.com/http://ciaranmcnulty.com/avatar.gif"> ?
you mean a hard line to the image?
Okay.
then something happens ...
step 3: profit.
heh
that's an interesting thought, McNulty
<img src="http://filterservice/childsafe/http://phae.com/avatar.gif"> <-- would serve default img until you registered with the service and got cleared by a moderator
okay
so who runs the filter service?
where the filterservice could be prepended by the blog?
anyone, it's just a URL
the blog would stick it into the avatars
so i could run my own which approves x-rated images to kiddie sites
yes but the kiddie site would be prepending the avatar IMGs' SRC with http://knownkiddiesafefilter.com
ok
which could serve 'BLOCKED', 'Awaiting approval' GIFs, or just the img
so it's up to the site publisher to find a filter service they trust
yes
obv. the filter can take params for filter level
so would each avatar have to be registered with every filter service?
mmmmyeah
heh
I would expect there would be certain filter services that would dominate...
what if we send the fox and the grain across together, then bring the fox back?
Say I go to your blog, right
I make a post, I can forget about it
Some time later, someone at the filter service gets to my avatar in the queue and rates it
at which point it'll either start showing on your blog or will get blocked.
I dunno what's in it for the filter service, mind you
the blog owner could be running his own filter service, if he wants, or defer it to some other trusted party
I'm not sure how the HTTP would work... you'd have to take into account people changing their avatar
here's a thought
so you have a central service that avatars are submitted to and rated
ala gravatar?
that service provides no live filtering
you then have satellite filtering services which import data from the central service daily / weekly / hourly
those satellite services are the ones doing the live filtering
if the central service has downtime, no big deal
I was trying to avoid having a centralised authority :-/
More of a 'web of trust' thing
all the satellites have copies of the data
how about having an avatar based in a standard path of a website?
yes, i was trying to avoid that too, McNulty
for example http://mydomain.com/avatar.png
davecardwell - what does that buy you?
the problem we're trying to solve is that ratings system davecardwell
the publisher of the blog choses a filter service for their site
hCard gives us the photo
say myfilter.com
ah, in that case any filter service could be used chosen by the blogger
that filter service grabs the photo from the given url, and it is moderated there
an md5sum of the image is taken to check for changes to the image
so does the avatar have to be moderated by every single filter service?
yes
but as you said, a few will quickly dominate
depending on the features they offer
market forces 'n' all that
annoying for users :(
so replication will be minimal
perhaps create some standard method of sharing the moderation information
i guess services could peer
drewinthehead - it has to be moderated by every service used by the blogs you post on
aye
They could share data in the background
that way it is transparent to the user
And you shouldn't have to *do* anything to get it moderated, I don't see the pain
and it will be in the blogger's interest to use the most popular filtering services
yeah lazy kid sites will just use disneyfilter.com
unless the most popular is the slowest ;)
then they won't be the most popular
I'm concerned about the filters having to analyze the data
at which point the load decreases and they speed up again
if it's all based on a standard api, it should be trivial for a blogger to switch services
I'd hope that they'd be able to just do 30x reditects
in which case it would be in the filter service's interest to be scalable
davecardwell - I dunno if there would need to be an API
http://filter.com/http://server.com/myavatar.gif
well, the requests for an image could come in a standard form
that would be useful
that's about it
yeah
so all a blogger would have to do is change filter.com to otherfilter.org
you'd just need to rewrite your blog template
it needs caching build in by default .. that's a big problem with gravater at the moment
only in the one place the comment form template is defined
implementation docs should never give http://filter.com/http://server.com/myavatar.gif as a good example
drewinthehead - I originally thought that the filter could just serve a 302 header
there's a dns overhead too
but the user could swap out their image, you'd need the filter to keep re-validating it
I guess the filter could cache at their end
My gravatar plugin, which I don't use, but still have installed, lets me cache images locally, by the looks of things.
think how much less load gravatar.com would be under if they'd showed people how to cache their images
the filter could just take a digest of the image
to make sure it hasn't changed
davecardwell - is there a way of doing that without fetching the image each time though?
right, Phae ... that needs to be default
assuming a malign server
It is on my plugin.
I assume that's not the case for others then.
if the blogger cached the avatars locally a check wouldn't be needed *every* time
the gravatar.com implementation docs don't encourage caching
oh
davecardwell: a check would only be needed periodically ... e.g. each time a user posts a new comment
drewinthehead - good point
the filter could offer a web service alternative, whereby it returned true or not?
it could
then it would be up to the blogger whether or not they decided to cache
or what they did with that information
judicious use of the if-not-modified-since type headers would help out a lot
not sure what sort of business model the fitler could operative with?
at least gravatar can charge for extra email addresses
that's up to the filter service to figure out
it's worth considering though
If they're a busy service, you might pay to fast-track your images in a review queue.
the load shouldn't be astronomical
I dunno. There's not a vast amount of business features.
as they're not serving the images
a problem we identified earlier is that no everyone has a site to publish an hCard - so there's opportunity there
ah, true
mmhmm
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
so, what about Phae's idea of visitor rating preference...?
lost that one in the scrollback
We were talking about a visitor to a blog setting which avatars they'd be happy to view
the idea was that no only can the site owner decide what rating of image to show, but the visitor to the site could have a preference too (e.g. see-no-evil)
So, if they went to your blog, and they wanted to grab hCard info AND all the photos regardless of rating, they could.
Or visa versa, they went to a site that was allowing x-rated, but didn't want those images.
Which is probably more likely, perhaps.
hmm
browser plugin? :p
we need a way to identify the user
or, yes, something running at the client
I guess at the moment a browser plugin isn't so ridiculous, since most of us are grabbing hCard info via a plugin of some kind anywya.
a browser plugin that rewrites the url to the filter service
mm
a mF for photo ratings?
or, perhaps the blogger could put a link to the filter servide they use somewhere on the page
following it sets a cookie for the filter site
Oh.. I see where you're going. That's not so silly.
Set the rating with the mF.
if the images were written out with a rating, something at the client could choose to show/hide them
Yeah.
requires nothing clever on the website
could be a GM script at the client
or a plugin, or just a smart browser
yea
or the cookie thing?
anything with a cookie is probably going to get too complex
you'd end up setting cookies for every service and get back to being reliant on a third party server to be alive
a ratings mF could be useful for all sorts of things ... pr0n sites, even
hasn't this already been done?
content ratings?
hehe
http://www.icra.org/
woah .. no wonder that failed ... it's complex
I don't like icra
class="rating-x" on any element would be simpler
that would depend on the site displaying the content to adhere to the ratings system
Okay, so that's cool.. but how would it work in practice? You're going to be showing all images by default.
they could still put a rating-pg on x-rated material
but I guess it's still better than nothing
it would depend on the nature of the site
Yeah, but you can't do much about misuse.
a porn site would show all images by default, unless a rating was present I suppose
the filtering is done by the user
whereas a blog might choose not to show pornographic material unless a rating of x was present
the site is just declaring what the content is
ah right, I see
I mean, default as in.. someone on a non-plugged in smart browser visiting your site. At the moment, a service like gravatar protects those users.
that makes a lot more sense
We wouldn't be.
good point Phae
but the site owner is still expressing whatever control they want
as with gravatars
Yea
the rating-x stuff is for the user preference to further restrict that
I realise that, but if you abandoned gravatars and started using a mF route, it'd be swish for those people with browsers that recognise the mF
Oh, okay.
I misunderstood slightly.
i see no reason why a site couldn't use <body class="rating-x">, even
then a user-agent configured to not show x-rated content would shield the user from the whole lot
heh, streaming the internet into ratings. :)
(won't someone think of the chil-der-ran!)
or is this all lunacy?
Not necessarily.
Probably a bit out of scope on your hCard thing though, where we started.
yes, but a useful deviation
I personally quite like the idea of having sites explicitly rated.
if we were to propose a mF for ratings, we'd need to investigate what people currently do
Okay.
and look at stuff like http://www.icra.org/
and see why that's broken
i think perhaps the problem with previous attempts is that they've tried to ensure a safe browsing experience
ICRA has really complex levels. You can be really precise about what your sites content is.
i think all we'd want to propose is a method of limiting the chance of seeing stuff that offends you, when a site has been considerate enough to rate content
i think movie ratings are a good model
broad, well understood strokes
I think so too.
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
ok, so should i start a brainstorming page on the wiki?
since you can specifiy many classes it would be possible to give a more complex indication of the content
ala ICRA
Go for it. I'm looking at ICRAs filter at the moment.
and then since you can give any element a class, you can really isolate potentially offensive content
Yeah.
or perhaps we should throw the conversation wider on mf-discuss first
(perhaps this has been tried already and failed for some reason)
I don't mind. Whatever you feel is appropriate.
you could, for example, make a page rating-moderated, but each of its comments rating-unmoderated
We ought to keep a list of "tried and failed" mFs
heh
and then change the latter once you've taken a look
Of course, the main problem we might come up against is that it's all author based ratings. There's no real checking or value of quality.
Which is where things like ICRA have us beat.
well that's ok, because we're working from a default of 'unknown rating'
ok
everything is potentially above an individual's comfortable rating level
so there's nothing to be gained by putting rating-pg on rating-x content, any more than putting no rating on it
It's silly. I seem to always end up discussing nudity. I worked for deviantART way back when, and used to have irate parents on our case, because they serve nudity, which be default is visible to all, but is hard to detect as it's within an art site.
community sites often have a link you can press to mark content as potentially offensive
be=by
obviously not fool-rpoof
Yeah, they have that.
But a non-logged in user sees all, and by default the setting is off. It's partly their own fault.
is there anything in ICRA that is more granular than page-level?
with a uf it could simply be a case of adding some class to that element signifying an issue has been raised
Not that I've seen. It rates a whole page.
yeah, page-level doesn't solve our problem (which is good)
Infact, it seems to rate the entire site, rather than individual pages within the site.
ouch
yeah
So it blocks a domain, I assume.
IIRC you can do individual pages
ohhh.. wait
I'll double-check
The system is very flexible. At one end of the scale you can create a single label to describe any number of websites. On the other hand you may wish to describe individual items (pages, images, movies etc.) with their own unique label.
ah ha
You have to create a label
http://www.icra.org/pkd/
And then link your content to that label, which you have to upload to your space.
Ah, that's a differnt service.
oh, i love this ... Nudity: Exposed breasts, Bare buttocks, Visible genitals
heh
I said they were precise!
you create one label for all/most of your site
then additional labels
Although I assume if your overall rating is nudity, you're not going to get past that label to see maybe a subsection on flower arranging.
sounds like it's just too hard to implement ... too complex
It can only get worse.
It does seem complex.
And of course, the whole thing assumes you've downloaded and are using one of their filtering programs.
"Depiction of tobacco use" !!
complex because it is designed to get parents to use their proprietry tools for filtering
haha
no way.
an open standard couldn't afford such complexity
yeah
but would potentially be more useful to parents if it were more widely adopted
s/parents/those with an interest in censorship/
having an author think, hmm, this photo's a bit saucy, and add class="rating-r" on it is a very realistic proposal, i think
I think a useful one would be a rating-? that would indicate the content had been identified as ambiguously potentially offensive
for community sites
yeah
the site admins could then remove or more precisly rate the content later
finding examples of this in the wild could be hard
http://www.safesurf.com/
do you think those 'You must be 18 or over to enter' roadblock pages are an example?
"How to Stop Porn Predators" - excellent! ;)
They're just there as legal disclaimers.
rubbish ones at that.
they'd be unnecessary if the site owner had used the rating microformat
the user agent would block access to the site unless it was over-rided by the user
with a confirmation dialog, or password, or whatever
ah, NSFW is an example, surely
Well, not really. Those roadblocks are to check age- our system would be checking preference.
might be worth looking at some products like net nanny
http://www.child-internet-safety.com/internet_filters.php?pid=3-1001&gclid=CKfpp_r1sYYCFUxLQgodGFBwWA
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
rel="nsfw"
perhaps that could be a rating ... rating-nsfw
I like that none of those are rated to work on Macs
heh
http://www.freeverse.com/bumpercar2/
They have the nicest site, at least :)
http://www.iwatchdog.org/family_safety_info_and_solutions.html has a whole bunch of links
childsafe search engines - might be worth looking into how they filter
keywords?
http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2156191
is the correct term for this "content rating" ?
oh, lots of hand picking going on.
Yeah, I think so.
seems fair to me
I think ratings have come on since I was at school. I remember when I was a kid not being able to look up stuff about the human body for example, for classes, because the school's filter would block certain words
Even deviantART was filtered a lot, just on the word "deviant".
Which is probably fair enough :)
I like the idea of rel="nsfw" type, then the emphisis is on the refer, and not the page itself.
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7757 * DrewMcLellan * (+54) Exploratory discussions - - Content Rating
Of course, the site giving the rating still needs to be trust.
[[content-rating-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/content-rating-examples * DrewMcLellan * (+695) Created
Yeah, that's what we were saying. The trust value is limited.
+ed, so porn sites could link to themselves with rel="safe"
Yeah
That's right.
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
I think the uF wouldn't replace existing filters/extensions, but complement them, to sites they've not covered yet, or that had a range of content.
[[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7758 * DrewMcLellan * (+299) Content Rating Examples -
Yeah. I can see a benefit to encouraging all websites to rate themselves.
So it wouldn't be as high as porn filtering, but could be for profanity.
Well, you could do a search, and limit your results based on the ratings
I dunno. I think there's uses for it.
[[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7759 * DrewMcLellan * (+94) Content Rating Examples -
ok, so how do we sum up the content-rating problem>
erm, I suppose the problem is that currently, we have no defualt way of knowing what rating content is. We have to rely on keyword, or prior judgement from another party.
[[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7760 * DrewMcLellan * (+126) The Problem -
[[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7761 * DrewMcLellan * (+110) Existing Practices -
and existing rating systems are limited in scope
you can't rate certain fragments or elements
apart from things like movies with ICRA
and then it's long-winded
[[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7762 * DrewMcLellan * (-12) Existing Practices -
ok, we have the start of an examples page
:D drew
http://microformats.org/wiki/content-rating-examples
now it needs fleshing out ... pun intended
m'k
i'll put together a post to mf-discuss
okay.
Mooo.
Busy morning.
and it just got started
(for some of us)
Morning :)
drewinthehead - did you get anywhere with the idea of avatar filtering?
heh
yes .. sort of
oh man, we got on a bit of a tangent.
in the process we found a simpler problem
I was thinking about it over lunch, a blog could choose to use a blacklisting filter rather than a whitelisting one
There's lots of other related bodies. Perhaps we should note those also. There seems to be an organisation for each country.
which would be even less intrusive
man you really did go on a tangent
heh
a generic content-rating microformat?
I can see it working for sites like deviantart
I want to say that tantek was opposed to the development of this microformat due to the significantly different standards throughout the world.
But real pron sites aren't going to do anything to limit their audience
Atamido - You mean comparative morals?
I think so.
That is a toughie.
[[introduction-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=introduction-ja&diff=0&oldid=7763 * IwaiMasaharu * (+9) Webデザインの進化 - 日本語表現の変更
according to its Wikipedia page ICRA seems to have some big corporate members
I saw that.
BT, AOL, Microsoft...
It's on their website.
I'm sure it's as much of a question of different standards across sites, let alone around the world
A fundamentalist christian website might have a different set of standards to SuicideGirls
I suppose the benefit a complex system would be that it can take into account cultural differences
heh, McNulty pipped me to it :p
rel="not-safe-for-utah"
That was why I (very much earlier) was advocating the idea of filtering sites
heh
It's a sort of 'rating according to authority X'
lol @ pnhChris
well
rating-pg is subjective
content-boobies is less so
I think the actual ratings we'd use need to be thought about very carefully, but right now we're interested in how it's being done and why its not done that well. I guess.
<a href="http://www.utah-chastity.com" rel="rating-xxx"> ?
a browser could choose to take the rating at face value, but it's given a sort of ratings domain, so I can ignore the Utah Chastity Society's ratings
The movie ratings system - that currently differs from the States to Europe slightly, doesn't it?
yep
in the UK I think it's just U, PG, 12, 15, 18
We have 12A now too :)
it varies from UK and Ireland so we get DVDs badged with both
Okay.
ICRA ratings take care of 'comparitive morals', but is exceptionally complex.
It does show a cultural difference, even at that level.
even in the us.. tv rating, movie raitings, and album labeling are all different
okay
That's right, Atamido
I definitely think ratings need to be linked somehow to a ratings authority
Which one though? :)
oh.. and video game ratings differ as well
Yeah
You need to say "The BFFC rate this 12A"
NC-17 vs R
so we know what the scale is
Alright.
A page could have multiple differing ratings from different authorities
Are you going to have a rating for each rating authority?
for all the ones the site author cares about
Because not every authority ranks "indecency" items in the same order.
how will it be of any value if its rated in something other then the surfers known authority.. or there is some process to translate it into the surfers local / chosen authority scheme
I think if there are multiple ratings, the browser would rate the content at the level of the ones it 'knows about'
If it doesn'tknow about any, it'll apply the strictest rules
:-)
If you're talking about browser restrictions, that is best done by filtering software.
I very much like the idea of tagging individual page elements with ratings.
<span class="rating"><abbr class="authority" title="British Board of Film Classification">BFFC</abbr> rates this movie <abbr class="grade" title="Universal">U</abbr></span ?
getting complex again
the grade would be on some standard scale
<a href="http://www.bbfc.com" rel="rating" class="10" >The BBFC rated this page as 18</a>
Maybe someone should list potential problems first to know what to avoid?
class="rating-10"
(a) what content is being marked up.. in page content or links... (b) what is the context that content is being extracted into / leveraged?
IE, 1. Different ratings authorities rank items in different orders, so they can't be directly compared to each other.
to go the ICRA route would be something like class="content-nudity content-artistic"
2. The number of different items that could be filtered on it staggeringly large, making a list based system complex.
but then you'd hope a filter would look at the alt="" of an image, or the text in a paragraph, etc
3. There is no well recognized ratings authority across the world, making it difficult to standardize on a single system that everyone could recognize.
davecardwell: I think ICRA ratings are much more complex than that.
well yes, but I don't think you could achieve that full complexity with classes
not sensibly, anyway
my example was just a potential implementation of that sort of idea
One person's art is another person's horror.
it wasn't a proposal
it was meant as an example of why that sort of system wouldn't work with microformats
speaking of which.. and ot.. fun little probably nsfw game to play for 5 mins... http://www.severancethemovie.co.uk/
oh what. nice.
Anyway. I have to pop out for a couple hours.
boneill is Ben O'Neill, a 3rd year Software Engineering student - http://www.benedictoneill.com/
my final contribution to the conversation (cause i don't really see it ending in anything usable) ....
rel="no-follow-from-work"
:P
i think the only thing that matters with the ratings system is that it's understood what each rating means in terms of content
ha
drewinthehead - ratings from multiple authorities solves that to an extent
like, say we make an arbitrary 1-5 scale
the things to avoid are ratings like PG, i think
I can see the Chastity League rate it as 5 but the Violence Monitoring Society rate it 2
Or if there's an authority whose ratings I trust implicity (e.g. my church of choice!) I can look at their ratings
i guess
that gets back to what we're looking to mark up
and how we'd leverage the data
but then, the site's author's subjective rating system would come into play would it not?
ah, hm
it's got to be a single rating system
the only way for external authorities to rate content is for them to do it exclusively
but should only be taken as a rough guide
I was thinking about labelling the pages with ratings from other sites.
like, with a hyperlink to a page on authority.com saying my site is rated '5'
pnhChris - hm!
i think it would be elemental, pnhChris
A rating is really a negative/positive review
Like Tantek's comment recently about bug reports being negative reviews
gah ... everything's a bloody review around here! ;)
I suppose an aggragator or filter system could look at your other reviews and compare it to others to determine how relatively conservative you are on various issues
You mean an hReview.
:P
edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
ratings are based on lots of scales ... nudity, violence, profanity .. i don't think hReview's ratings can express all those vectors
davecardwell: that's the direction i was going... see a list of all the movies... "Church of Bob rated it a 4 out of 5 and "safe for all""
... kinda thing
though i guess you could do that with multipe ratings
overall 4 of 5, tag: family safe: 5 of 5
and not change any spec
just go on convention
you could offer a number of recognised criteria that aren't necessarily restrictive
get the most common moral objections people might have to content
violence, nudity, sex, smoking, etc
what if the strokes were really broad?
'safe for all', err something and 'adult content'
i gotta run for a bit... but I think i'm done here unless someone narrows down the context that we're working in a bit.. tv listings vs. reviews vs. linking to other content vs. meta data for existing page.. etc.
you're saying it's DITW, pnhChris?
i'm saying the conversation is still trying to solve everything
and identifying that a moview in a movie listing is rated R by te MPAA is differnt then a church blogging a review of a movie and telling their audience if its "safe" or not
or linking to some not safe for work content from a forum post
ok, let's forget it
i'll kill the page
and wanting to have a no-foloow like way to allow someones with a greasmonkey script to avoid it
I think it needs more discussion before you throw it out
they're all interstings issues
yeah
Perhaps leaving the page up with a description of the issues would be a good idea.
i thought that was the point of exploratory discussion?
the tv listing with "official" ratings is one I borught up a month or two ago.. but i ended up not having to build that part of the particular project because it existed already
Probably.
so i was looking for a semantic way to attach the rating to the thing listed
but that gets into the media description side of thigns... rather then the review side
and arbitrary personal evaluation side
so break up the discussion some and keep going.. or key on one aspect and keep it going
i'm not sure people disagreeing with a rating is our problem to solve ... that's always going to happen
What is the specific problem you are trying to solve?
filtering content based on rating
What content, where?
web content on a web page
So, a rating in the header of the page, or a rating in a link to the page?
it may be a single element that is unsuitable
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
a rating on the item itself
that could be on a IMG element or on the BODY
for example, an article may be fine, but comments may be classified in some way as potentially offensive
or on anything
or unmoderated
So not a link?
I think the intention was for the content on an actual page
not a link to that content
a link wasn't the primary concern
though I suppose you could link to a #fragment for that kind of granular control
the initial thought centered around self-rating your own content
that is, the content on your own page
the concept could extend to links, but we'd not been considering that at this point
What is wrong with using ICRA ratings?
more for an author to rate the content he or she is publishing
ICRA is way too complex, so it doesn't get used
complex and unwieldly
it also doesn't offer rating any element of a page
Complex beyond the ability for us mere mortals to understand.
I'd wager complex enough to restrict its uptake
You could theoretically make it attach to a single element.
right .. it'd be easy to quickly attach a rating class name to something, but it's a big job to learn and implment the ICRA stuff
right
"National Schools Film Week" http://www.nsfw.org/
with the current trends towards user-generated content, ICRA also presents a problem with allowing the community to rate their own content
far simpler for them to be able to add a class="" to an element
"Northumberland Services For Women" http://nsfw.ca/
As opposed to "A blog for everything not safe for work" http://www.nsfw.com/
I think NSFW is quite a good example
although it's arbitrary - what is not safe for my workplace might be acceptable for yours - it highlights that content may potentially offend
then it's your judgement call whether you want to proceed or not
I think if we could take that and add a few specifics to it, that would be a desirable microformat
and so it should be with any ratings system we propose
right
"usage: insert a URL to shorten and include a warning that the URL may contain adult content. When you send your friends the link generated they will get a splash page warning them first that if they value their job, they want to look at it later ;)" http://www.nsfw.us/
that solves the problem of the rating system being arbitrary and culturaly insensitive
Like tinyurl, but for NSFW. :P
I disagree.
NSFW is usually rated to the lowest common denominator.
not totally, but to a large extent
that's why I wanted to add a few specifics
if content is sexual in nature, for example
IE, people usually mark NSFW when they expect some work place to not find it acceptable, even if their own does.
a parent may be fine with profanity, but not want their children viewing nudity
Damn nudity. :P
i think that's too fine grained for us to attempt to address
i'd be happy with just 3 levels
http://nsfw.us/10296
a system of levels is a bit too arbitrary again I think
Standard ratings says 5 levels.
NSFW-profanity, NSFW-nudity, NSFW-violence, NSFW-political
I'd go with something like that
it doesn't imply any moral judgement
yup
merely that it may cause offence
descriptive
because of X
Of course, that is completely ignoring the Microformats development process.
but it isn't over-stepping the bounds of mf into just being metadata
we'd have to look at the examples though
btw, NSFW-political?
Yes.
Just an example.
i guess in some countries ..
I was trying to think of another example.
ICRA is obviously fairly desirable if it has people like AOL, T-Mobile and Microsoft on board
we should look at the problems there and how it could be adapted
Things to never talk about at work: Politics and Religion
you have large content generators and content carriers there
so ICRA is obviously doing *something* right
and I believe that is the labelling of content (nudity, profanity etc)
You mean "something wrong" don't you?
where it falls down is its complexity
and it seems to have been designed with ICRA's own filtering tools in mind
I would say, ICRA contains every little feature that everyone wants, so you need to look at it and pull the stuff that is actually useful.
not a general open web purpose
NSFW-religious
I don't like NSFW- :p
NSFW-explicit-drug-use
Not Safe For Whiskey_M
I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to collect the majority of moral hot potatoes
nudity, violence, etc
it doesn't need to be totally universal
nudity, violence, oatmeal cream pies, profanity, etc.
Ah, then leave out the profanity.
nsfw-tiananmen-square
nsfw-atamido-nudity
<_<
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-October/001684.html
>_>
(from mf-discuss)
not quite the same as what we're discussing
but the thread may throw up some issues
:)
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-October/001717.html in particular
(Tantek's thoughts)
It might be worthwhile to note the difference between what you want and what has been discussed with linking the next time you post to the ml.
If anything, NSFW should probably be used somehow because it is the single most universally recognized system.
davecardwell: ^
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
NSFW is potentially confusing
for people who haven't come across it before
(because of the "for work" bit)
There are people that haven't come across it before?
Responed to ml.
i think the whole different-people-rating-things-differently problem is a non-issue
NSFM "Not Safe For Mormons"?
NSFQ "Not Safe For Quakers"?
NSFW "Not Safe For Women"?
so the alternative is no rating ... which is, by default potentially "Not Safe For People Who Value Their Freedom" or whatever
i.e. the default state is as offensive as it can get
NSFPWVTF?
all we're attempting to do is rate stuff down
someone might say they would have rated it down further, but hey
Oh, then you want SFW-nudity, SFW-violence, etc?
they should be thankful that you rated it at all
It's a lot easier to rate the bad than the good.
i'm not suggesting rating the good
If you can find some contect that includes nudity, violence, political, religious, profanity, etc, all at the same time, you've just reached the holy grail of fetish sites.
The pope, wearing only a pointy hat, whipping George Bush, who is yelling #@@#$!
Hmmmm....
And the best part is, I don't have to label any of it with your system, because it is already in the worst state. :)
the thing is, with a rating system - any rating system - people end up being offended *less* than with no rating system in place
to be honest i don't care. but i run sites where i know the sort of users I get would find something like this beneficial
take our initial problem of allowing the user to specify what rating of gravatar they're happy to see, as a subset of the site publisher's choice
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
erk .. 4pm .. time for lunch
jibot: Hola
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7764 * IwaiMasaharu * (+14) Exploratory discussions - Added new marker for Content Rating
[[Main Page-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=7765 * IwaiMasaharu * (+124) sync: english: 15:45, 27 Jul 2006
[[xoxo-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-ja&diff=0&oldid=7766 * IwaiMasaharu * (+4) sync: english: 18:08, 23 Jul 2006
sigh the whole content rating thing rears its head again
[[hcalendar-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-ja&diff=0&oldid=7767 * IwaiMasaharu * (+31) sync: english: 11:29, 25 Jul 2006
drew, phae, davecardwell, anyone still around?
i'm here
hiding under my desk
>yawn< - more or less awake
i think i've pretty much resigned to the fact that i don't care enough about ratings systems to put up with the aggressive kickback :)
drew, the problem is that "content rating" is just a form of tagging
this doesn't need a separate solution
and certainly hiding data (i.e. the rating) invisibly in the class attribute is a major no-no
ok, no problem.
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7768 * DrewMcLellan * (-68) Exploratory discussions -
[[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7769 * DrewMcLellan * (-1312)
i'm not saying that it's not worth doing content ratings. i'm just saying if you care about "rating your content" then *tag* your content with whatever keywords you think you would need to "rate" it
then people can potentially filter based on those tags
that sounds complex
tagging is complex?
tagging is perhaps the most popular microformat on the web
no, being able to match against arbitrary tags
it is not complex by any practical measure - people understand it and do it
ah
well, that's the problem of content rating taxonomy
and *that* is certainly not our problem
even W3C punted on that
right, i don't want to even attempt to solve that
PICS is a system for applying ratings of various systems
it's very easy to think up problems with rating systems, and i'm not sure that many of those problems really exist
they exist in practice because people have totally different ideas of what is offensive
across different cultures, countries
and across time in the same cultures and countries
ok
in many ways this is more of a UI problem
countries? counties even
to be honest i set out to solve a different problem, so i'm not exactly holding a flag for this one
well you can still tag your photo with various tags
for your gravatar equivalent
just map their taxonomy 1:1 into tags
done
q: anything wrong with a tag having image content?
well an image is a resource on the web with a URL just like any other link
so you can use xFolk to tag it
well
i mean
like the logos used in most US rating systems
eg.
<a href="example.com/tag/mpaa-r" rel="tag"><img src="r-logo.png" alt="Rated R"></a>
that works
or some variation of the same
part of the reason the semantic *tag* comes from the URL (last segment) is so you can do things like that
use XHTML, please, pnhChris ;)
why? :P
oh boy
its funny
for whatever reason
let's not go there
on message boards and stuff
i never close imgs
though its typically not an issue there cause the content gets tidied or some variation of it
just an odd habit
how much of the scrollback have you read, tantek?
did you see any discussion about a distributed avatar system based on hCard@photo?
yes
that sounds very cool
in fact, it might actually get gravatars to take off big time
because it would avoid the need for a central registry
that's it. we just need to make peering easy
all you do is go to the URL that the commenter entered for themselves, look for the <address> hCard on that page, grab the PHOTO or LOGO from it, and you're done
what am I missing?
ratings ;)
i don't think it is necessary
i bet you could use people's hCard photos and not be worried about that
the gravatar ratings thing was overthinking the problem
i have returned!
i have a gravatar enabled site where i only accept general-audience rated images
Phae: you've missed *all* the fun!
oh no :(
gimme a digest version.
use tags ;)
we got shouted down
typical.
i wasn't shouting!
rightly, however.
lol
no, tantek, just the stern voice of reason ;)
ah ok
sternvoiceofreason++
So are we scraping it all?
just the content rating bits
we're back onto the original problem
laters :)
Isn't thatthe whole bit?
:P
Oh, with hcards?
gravatars
I would use hCard photos from commenters on my blog without bothering with ratings
Okay.
There was logic behind how we got there.
I think we just need to rewind.
I actually trust the typical blogger (especially one that would link to me) to use reasonable images for themselves
blogging is only one area of use
there are other areas? ;)
For avatars?
Everywhere needs avatars!
see here: http://generous.org.uk/actions/planetary/7/stop-taking-carrier-bags-from-shops
I see a bunch of hCards
at least conceptually
yes, new build in a month or so ;)
those are just profiles
and profiles are perfectly marked up with hCards
those are from gravatar.com
filtered by rating
if anyone posted with a nasty picture to that site, i'd be .. erm .. in trouble.
ratings are the feature that makes them useful in that case .. otherwise i'd just build my own system with moderation and take that burden on myself
i see, you just want an API for distributed moderation
for any resource
i guess
we weren't thinking quite that grand
and drew, are you sure that the "nasty" that would get you into trouble matches up with the gravatar taxonomy of nastiness and their own editorial opinion of nastiness?
What we had got to was finding a method for some viewers to be able to view all avatars, regardless of rating, even if the site owner had set the rating at say PG-12
or is it a lowest common denominator thing?
close enough that i can demonstrate i've taken reasonable steps ;)
e.g. everyone just ends up viewing G-content
Or moreso, the other way.. only grab avatars of a rating you set.
And I think that's how we got onto content rating :)
the idea was that anyone could set themselves up as a filtering service, and then a site publisher chooses whichever service they trust
drew, what's interesting is that all this RSS nonsense has taken off, and it is certainly NOT the 80% that have asked for any kind of rating on the content that they are syndicating
I would firmly put the "need to be sure there is no nastiness" into the 20%, not the 80%
then those services can choose to peer with other services they trust
people are just syndicating content in the wild without worrying about ratings
because in practice 99% of it is just fine
and if once in a while something "nasty" slips by, typically people blow it off
*cough*
perhaps this is a cultural shift that is occuring on the net?
perhaps :)
in my experience the folks advocating the most strongly for such content rating systems are cultural conservatives that are trying to plug their fingers into a dam that has long since broken
that may well be so
it's certainly no personal crusade of mine
that's why we dismissed self-rating, briansuda
sorry, i missed the first half, the conversation - reading archives now
perhaps we just go with reactionary 'this is offensive' links and be done with it
oops, not reactionary
but if you are pulling MY hCARD, and looking for the photo/logo then you are letting me self-rate
'reactive'
hence the desire for a moderation system
(currently provided centrally by gravatar.com)
drew, in reality, i think if you are browsing the web at all, you are ok with some amount of random nastiness occuring like .01% of the time
agreed
which is probably what you would get even with unrated gravatars, er, hCard photos from people's sites
and, as you say, sites that care about that .01% are well within the 20%.
or is that 19.99% now? ;)
heh
so i think what we're saying is, there is no spoon.
I think it could do with being put down for a little while.
i think i could do with being put down
:D
DanC is Dan Connolly http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
right .. i gotta dash .. back in an hour
ciao drew
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
welcome dbaron
back in a bit.
Rating systems get gamed, and so do moderation ones
looka t the breastfeeding icons controversy on LJ
deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=7770 * Tantek * (+166) added
deanero - microformats BOF tonight at OSCON
see http://microformats.org/wiki/events for dettails
details even
k
'tis on my schedule :)
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
back
wb
got drenched ... :)
its actually raining up there at last?
yes, thunderstorms
cool.
ok, so i think i had xfn in mind when i was thinking about embedding the ratings
but i guess it's ok for the data to be hidden in xfn, because it's in the rel attribute
yeah
which is the correct place to express that
there's nothing quite as frustrating as knowing you don't have the mental capacity for something :)
lol
i thought we'd given up on this now due to darned logic!
i still maintain the fox needs to come across with the grain
heh, I like the discussion on explaining why we'd have to visit lots of pr0n sites on the discuss list.
that didn't even occur to me ... i (for one more day!) work on a classified ads site with a big and fairly rank personals section - so NSFW content is pretty much all over the place all the time
:)
my work is not safe for work
I like to think my history is pretty squeeky
i never understood most people who complain about NSFW.. though I mostly see it happen on forums I hit that i'd think just spending all day on would be not-appropriate-for-work
yeah
or like "dude.. you're at work.. why you reading fark in the first place"
:P
heh.
I forumise at work. I don't get ot IRC though.
I'd never get anything done.
You didn't miss anything.
heh
LOL
drew, there are aspects of XFN that made it a bit different
oh?
as you point out, the rel attribute can be used for limited semantics, but that's not even the big difference(s)
XFN was inspired by pre-existing widespread blogrolling practices of bloggers
who were also often listing friends, co-workers, family etc. in different sections of blogrolls as well
and doing things like annotating people in their blogrolls with "*" if they had met them etc.
those existing web publishing behaviors provided something fairly concrete to model
and then the other thing is the nature of relationships
and while of course there are nearly unlimited number of kinds of relationships between people
it turns out that the vast majority can be captured by a relatively small taxonomy
and that appears to be a domain-specific aspect
most other domains aren't easily modeled by small taxonomies
tantek: ignoring the track mark up-- is using an hatom-esque author here ill-advised? http://www.subpop.com/features/releases.html
i'm re-publishing a gazillion pages of this form:
http://tinyurl.com/hkrwp
i'd really like to indicate some sort of relationship between the releases and the artists...
ack
http://www.subpop.com/features/release.html
that first url was a lie
other publishing examples are allmusic and amazon
here's allmusic on the same release: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:vucibkh9sakq
the same release insound, as well: http://search.insound.com/search/showrelease.jsp?p=INS20649
on insound rather
drewinthehead: so you start the new job monday or so?
tuesday, yup
nice
Where's that?
Yahoo
oh cool. Seems like everyone is moving to yahoo lately :P
it's the fashionable thing to do
hehe
yahoo is the new google
and google is the new microsoft
Except with a really cluttered interface...
darn, missed deanero
That will teach you to stop staring at your IRC client.
My friend catspaw worked on Internet censorhip monitoring for a couple of years
so she is now an expert on the kinds of pornography searched for and censored by various differnt countries around the world
What a thing to be expert on...
so if you did want a taxonomy built...
Kevinmarks, did she keep info by year?
Alright, time for me to go get some live entertainment in the form of local ska :/ catch ya later
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
?learn ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
ajturner, sorry i missed your message yesterday (http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-07-26#T023417), did you find the Microformats Cheat Sheet?
deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
For hCards on the web, are you required to specify a "type" for the email?
Can you just have <span class="email">Atamido@gmail.com</span> ?
that example's good, Atamido
better to make it a mailto: link
type is not required
Hurrah.
So, "value" is just implied?
DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
pretty much .. i think a type of voice is implied with that value
there is no type on email anyway
only phone and address
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
briansuda: The wiki says there is. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Property_List
# url, email (type, value), tel (type, value)
Atamido, that is true, but then if you look at values 'type' can have for email you will see it is fairly limited
the only value that makes much sense is 'internet' which is also the default
in practice no one sets type on email
because there is no need
yeah, you can have type but they are only 'internet' 'x400' and 'pref'
Oh?
I thought you would have "work" and "home" emails.
right, pref is still useful
Atamido, see RFC2426 ;)
Pffft! RFCs are for squares.
I'm a rebel.
drew, can't spell voicemail without email?
i'll buy that, tantek ;)
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=7771 * Rohit * (+128) Upcoming -
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
uh Rohit, that linked you added is busted
and you didn't add things in date order :p
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=7772 * Tantek * (+20) fix date order of upcoming events
Hey Rohit, WTF is MFML?
oh the horror: http://wiki.commerce.net/wiki/MFML
sigh
ick
are there plugins/bots to read mf in irc channels?
what would that look like?
well, if a mf formatted string came across, it would provide a link to maybe add it to your address book (in an IRC app plugin)
or a bot may provide more info on an adr, such as a hyperlink to a map
and it would come in a small, red, box ;)
like for example, I write - "oh yeah, there's a great place on <adr><street>15 south main</street><locality>Detroit</locality></adr>" and a map link comes up
that's kind of an odd example, but one that I can think of off-hand
basically, a way to embed semantic info, like mf does, in IRC messages
These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.
See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.
