Timestamps are in UTC.
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
amette is http://alexander-mette.de and a TikiWiki developer
http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcal.php?uri=http://www.worldcupkickoff.com/ - is the parser messed up?
cdevroe is Colin D. Devroe, blogs at http://cdevroe.com/, lives in Clifford, PA, USA and helps run the 9rules Network
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
[[attention-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=5935 * TonyAtRoot * (+0) Implicit Attention Formats - fix broken link
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
Is anyone in this channel Jeremy Keith?
Anyone care to comment about Jeremy's latest use of hCard within his Blogroll, or is this a discussion that should happen via the mailing list?
cdevroe, my blogroll also uses hCards, take a look: http://tantek.com/
essentially, any time you refer to a person or organization, it makes sense to use an hCard
Then, shoudl they also be used in blog comments?
think of hCard as not just a way of publish your contact info, but as a way to semantically markup every person and organization
yep
Since we're only providing name, and url
and folks have been doing that for a while now
in combination with those gravatar thingies
Seems like overkill, in the sense that there wouldn't be a need to pull that information out (generally) since there is so much info missing at that poit
For example, if I wanted to popular my address book with information from Jeremy's blog roll, it'd be missing a huge amount of information.
the point is the same as any semantic markup
"pulling that information out" is only one possible use of semantic markup
popular (hah), populate
just because you are not doing that, doesn't mean you shouldn't use semantic markup
people markup things with <h1> <h2> and <p> even though they have no expectation that there will be things "pulling that information out"
no *specific* expectation that is
tantek: Agreed. But I guess my guestion is, does adding specific classes to my comments on my blog really make them more semantic than they already were?
screen readers and such do quite intelligent things with semantic markup for example
yes
it's a good semantic XHTML authoring practice
So the purpose for blogrolls and blog comments to have hCard markup, is what? Mostly so that the information could be used in other ways at any given time?
Not necessarily to export into other applications that you'd want more than someone's name in...
Andy Hume is the person who setup his blog comments to automatically publish gravatar+hCard for commenters
Yeah, I can totally see that it'd be easy to do. I suppose I'm looking for the direct benefit being that so much information would be missing.
e.g.: http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/
what is the direct benefit of using <p> tags instead of <br> ? or using <h1> <h2> instead of <b><font><br> ?
Well, that the document ends up being semantically correct.
do you actually question all your semantic markup in every instance with "looking for the direct benefit[s]"?
same point with hCard, hCalendar etc.
I see.
only *one* application of that semantic markup is to "export into other applications"
there are many others, including numerous ones that yet to be thought up
but that enterprising "remixers" think up all the time
semantic markup is one of those things that pays unexpected dividends
tantek: Do you forsee a new attribute coming in the future? Or will class="" always be used to denote semantics?
well, XHTML2 is attempting to introduce the "role" attribute
but I'm a bit skeptical about it
class works really well because it sits neatly at the intersection of two very important needs:
1. extending semantics of (X)HTML
2. providing a *convenient* hook for styling
.class selectors are far easier / more convenient / more broadly supported than attribute selectors
In other words, no new versions need to come out.
if anything, a subset, like XHTML basic
i would put that slightly differently
support is the main issue there, it seems to me
we have yet to see a real market need for new versions
we may find one in 5-10 years after we have run out of steam with current approaches
or we may find that microformats work well even in the long term
one of the reasons I cooled off toward HTML5 WG
difficult to say from our current perspective
What I meant was, we don't need a new version of XHTML to come out, in order to take advantage of microformats now.
is realization that markup don't need to change
and the only way to find the limitations of current technologies are to stretch them beyond their limits and see what breaks
many think microformats are pushing HTML beyond where it should go
maybe DOM APIs... but not markup
yet things appear to be working quite well
cdevroe, correct, we don't need a new version of XHTML to come out, in order to take advantage of microformats now
and publishers want to take advantage of microformats now
in ways that work well with current publishing methods and current content
without having to rewrite their content
or wait for all browsers to be updated to support some new language
I was thinking of building a profile plugin for WordPress that would automatically spit out your hCard based on your profile information. Then then I realized that I would end up supporting only 1 way to markup the hCard, and that isn't the right way to go about it.
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5936 * Tantek * (+99) Examples -
cdevroe, the thing to do with a WordPress profile plugin is to simply update the current profile page to support hCard, rather than spit out a new hCard page
that way you shouldn't have to change much of the markup at all
tantek: What I mean to say was, an easy way to publish an hCard
Like: http://cdevroe.com/about/#contact
very nice!
I could have that hCard feed from the information I put into WordPress.
But, then I'd be actually giving people the hCard markup, when they should have the freedom to choose how to markup their hCards...
by default, just use whatever markup is on their profile page
That's the point
There is none
huh?
WP Profile information is scarcely used throughout the application. And there is no default way of publishing it.
but first
add your hCard to the New Examples on the hCard spec:
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#New_Examples
tantek: I'm not doing anything different, should I list it?
yes of course!
i think what you are doing with the styling is quite nice, and definitely worthy of pointing out
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5937 * Cdevroe * (+103) Examples in the wild -
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=5938 * Cdevroe * (+15) Examples in the wild -
tantek: Should I create that plugin? What I don't want to happen is, I don't want my way of marking up an hCard to become the standard way... since that is the beauty, the right to choose.
"the standard way" meaning among WP users.
well, think about it this way
if there isn't a standard wordpress /about page, then make one that is beautifully designed and communicates the right information to readers
make it fit in with the existing template styling
and *then* add hCard to the markup
Right.
that way, you won't be designing the markup around hCard, you'll be using hCard in "existing" markup
tantek: Side note... I have member profiles being release on 9rules soon, all using hCard markup. So that should expose hCard to a huge audience that would not otherwise know about it.
very cool
I'm also considering an hCard > OPML tool, that will allow quick mass feed subscriptions.
definitely add those to the New Examples section as well, and since 9rules will effectively be a tool that supports hCard by default, add it to the "Implementations" section as well
on 9rules
you mean like an hCard blogroll -> OPML tool?
no
See, our member profiles will have tons of member information.
URL, Name, etc. etc.
So, if someone wants to choose 10 people to subscribe to
via RSS, or whatever..
I'll give them a way to choose their vcards, run it through a processor, that will spit out an opml file to import into their feedreader..
All pulling info from within the hCard
So perhaps, that is exactly what you meant, I don't know. :) haha
tantek: btw, I need a technorati sticker for my ibook.... I've had sitckers on my ibook since day one, and never have I gotten my hands on a technorati one. Shall I send you my hCard?
absolutely. do you have a photo of your iBook on Flickr?
but of course, uno momento
Here is one: http://flickr.com/photos/cdevroe/60902833/
Mine, and my wife's side by side: http://flickr.com/photos/cdevroe/25694374/
tantek: I read about your screen woes. while I sympathize, I can't wait to get off this damned 12" screen someday. GOD!
yeah, i wish they would just up the resolution to match what Windows users have had for years
nice stickers btw
Hopefully the MacBooks will have that, if the 13.3 rumors are true
[[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=5939 * Tantek * (+110) New Examples -
tantek: Couldn't you just point, from the wiki, to a Technorati search for hCard, hCalendar, etc?
and yeah, email me your postal adr and i'll send you some Technorati stickers
cdevroe, I could, but those would include mentions/discussions of hCard and hCalendar
and not all hCard/hCalendar markup actually *mentions* hCard or hCalendar by name (nor should they)
Gotcha.
OTOH, if you mean a Technorati search for hCards and hCalendar events... well, let's just say I need to get back to coding... ;)
;) Nice.
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC+02)
cdevroe, btw, you may want to read the first few sections of hcard-examples, as they probably apply quite a bit to what you are working on: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#Authors_of_Pages_and_Posts
tantek: Yeah. I am reading those now.
cdevroe, check out http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring as well. I would love to get your feedback on it.
Can I say that I'd rather see a snippet of a simple, and complex, hCard - with a list of attributes that can be used - rather than seeing the hCard creator.
Since I don't like the markup created by the hCard creator.
Well, I shouldn't say I don't like it... I just won't use it EXACTLY as it is.
I'd rather see people write the hCard themselves from that page.
From complex or simple examples.
I, and I may be alone, learn better from seeing code.
I know the attributes are on the wiki, but I'm wondering why they aren't on the authoring page
interesting. good feedback.
if you have suggested improved default markup for the hCard creator, I'm very much open to suggestions
in addition, the "learn better from seeing code" reasoning is exactly why I wrote the hCard creator to live-update the TEXTAREA with the markup
so you could see exactly what changed when you added a new piece of information etc.
tantek: Perhaps.. but it requires me to actually put smething.
would it be better if it started filled out?
Well, for me maybe... but others might not agree.
And, I'd like to see a more complex one too.
With more than one phone number.
Also, something needs to be said, very upfront, about the fact that if you include ORG that FN will be ignored in vCard reading applications. Somethign that was very annoying fo rme.
[[hcard-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-authoring&diff=0&oldid=5940 * Tantek * (+84) More tips and guidelines -
huh?
including ORG does not cause FN to be ignored
[[hcard-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-authoring&diff=0&oldid=5941 * Tantek * (+63) More tips and guidelines -
tantek: If I create a vCard from my hCard, and I have ORG in my hCard, then I come up as a company in Apple's address book.
cdevroe, i'm adding your suggests to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#More_tips_and_guidelines
definitely feel free to add some more as you think of them!
you only come up as a company in Apple's address book if the FN==ORG
I've tested this
Not in my case study.
ok, i definitely want to see that case study
Ok.
that's worth reporting to the email list
if you could post that at a url, perhaps as an hcard-bug-report
would make for a good test case i'm sure
tantek: Don't you think it would be a good idea to use <a class="tel" href="tel:<phone number>"><phone number></a>?
[[hcard-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-authoring&diff=0&oldid=5942 * Tantek * (+26)
taare, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Using_RFC2806_with_hCard
tantek: I just figured out the cause. I was including my middle initial in the FN... my fault.
it's being discussed
ok
feel free to add to the discussion!
tantek: Though I would much like to use my middle initial, drat.
It is a vCard limitation, I realize.
there should be nothing wrong with using your middle initial
you have to explicitly mark up your name with "n" markup though
right, then specify each part
given name, family, etc.
correct
So much markup, so little time.
:)
hah!
tantek: I'd be more than happy to setup a bunch of hCard examples
complex, simple, blog comments, etc.
Just to have them centralized.
Well, I don't have to add, but I think it would be nice to mention it the same way it's mentioned you can use mailto: links for emails
*have anything
btw, something else that is annoying... if you try to publish your hCard inside of a WordPress Page, worpdress has the habit of adding <br /> to the markup due to the fact that the FN and PHOTO are not wrapped in Ps
taare, not sure if tel: is as useful as mailto:
nearly every machine handles mailto: properly by default
and people author pages with mailto: already
tantek: Would ADDITIONAL-NAME be the proper property to use?
by very few machines handle tel:
and nearly nobody authors pages with tel:
thus tel: doesn't have nearly the same "status" (nor recommendation) as mailto:
Only computers with Skype or the like will handle tel:
Well, we got to start somewhere :)
My phone handle tel
taare, right, and if web publishers start using "tel:" now, independently of hCard, then it will make sense someday to recommend it
but until then, I'm not sure I want to suggest to people that they create a link that most people will not be able to click
ok, I understand
tantek: ADDITIONAL-NAME?
cdevroe, all lowercase, per http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Semantic_XHTML_Design_Principles
haha, sorry, of course I am doing that in here for reasons of readability. I'm not a complete dolt.
[[citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-irc-notes-2006-04-09&diff=0&oldid=5943 * Brian * (+2365) Started to add notes from the last IRC meetup
also of note: tantek: The hCard Creator does not adjust to middle initials.
I realize it only asks for First Last... just saying.
cdevroe, note, the hCard Creator is very liberal open source, wanna make it better? :D
feel free to improve it, blog your improvement, and we can check it into microformats.org
tantek: Ok. :) Also... do you have IM, I would like to speak with you for a moment..
cdevroe: /msg tantek foo bar baz
hey limbo_
what is the state of your work on rel="group" and rel="member" for people to identify themselves as members of the groups they link to and for groups to link to their members respectively?
I've worked on hcard-o-matic
are their feature requests on it?
or for it?
[[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=5944 * DaveO * (+156) Examples in the wild -
in fact, I developed a method for encoding the entire hcard in a url
bewest see above writings by cdevroe
oh middle initial?
hrm
and multiple phone numbers apparently
bewest: Also a more complex hCard.
I've been thinking of a really slick interface that would allow you to add properties transparently
yeah
multiple numbers, emails, etc.
yeah, yeah
I might get around to it some day
BTW... I can't seem to get my middle initial to appear correctly inside the vCard.
I use it on http://nearwhere.com/ although I don't know the current working state
Should I use N or FN?
one of the interesting things that came about in our use of hcard is that we started using it as a storage format
we store them in a database
most of the time, it's the record as a whole that is interesting
not the individual attributes
so we only parse it out using xpath when it's needed
and just store the entire hcard in a database field as text
cdevroe, you need to nest an "additional-name" inside an "n" for the middle initial to showup, and inside that same "n" you need "given-name" and "family-name" as well at a minimum
tantek: I did that. Though the parser doesn't like missing an FN
X2V
errors
cdevroe, FN is also required
FN is always required
so N and FN
FN, assuming that means full name
I'm trying to get this straight. :)
formatted name
as in how you would typically present your name
which is typically what people do on websites anyway
thus it made a lot of sense for hCard
much better: http://cdevroe.com/about/#contact - now includes middle initial. I suppose I'm slightly proud of myself.
cdevroe, now you definitely should add your hCard to the examples in the wild
I believe I already did.
ah, just found it. it is interesting to see who adds their hCard to the top of the list and who adds to the bottom
tantek: Did I do it incorrectly?
haha... is there a certain dynamic that does it to either/or?
i haven't figured that out yet
we had a little excercise in our research group; we published the results only for machines, so far. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/data
DanC, if it's not on the visible web, I can't see it. :p
the particular application in this case (for group/member) is... you guessed it, blogrolls once again
yeah. plus, of course, since the data is actually relevant to life as we know it, we publish it in the visible web too. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/
many folks list organizations or groups they are a member of in their blogroll
and many organizations list their members in a blogroll of sorts as well
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
so given that those links exist, it is a very small matter of markup to make their semantics explicit
again, the idea is to build on existing widespread behaviors
I'm working on hCalendar/hCard itineraries, such as http://www.w3.org/2006/04dc-bos/midw-bos.html
but when you have a vcard inside a vevent, the url properties get confused
DanC, the url properties (nor the UID, nor the CATEGORY) don't get confused because an hCalendar parser should know to not look inside any nested hCards
oh? how?
X2V doesn't know.
it should
I can't think of a straightforward way to express that in XSLT/XPath. nor CSS selectors.
DanC, do you have a URL to an example that you are having problems with?
yes. http://www.w3.org/2006/04dc-bos/midw-bos.html
hmm... it seems to get lucky and just grab the 1st URL
but if I changed the column order, it wouldn't get lucky
nice page!
:)
it's generated from SABRE output
wow
sweet
code: http://www.w3.org/2006/02dc-nce/flightCal.py
DanC, definitely add that page and links to the tools used to generate it to the hCalendar spec
as an Example in the Wild, and Implementations (for the scripts)
where does one get / see "SABRE" output?
I get SABRE output from travel admin folks
is it a common thing to see from travel sites?
e.g. in emails?
or confirmation pages?
yes, the SABRE stuff I get is plain text email. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre_%28computer_system%29 )
SABRE is the system behind travelocity, etc.
I also worked out some XSLT to add hCalendar to aa.com reservation pages.
I hope to find time this week to scrub the data so I can publish it.
ah... see TestData in http://www.w3.org/2006/02dc-nce/flightCal.py for some example SABRE data
on about the 2nd page
I mixed in aptdata from palmagent... which looks up airport lat/long from wikipedia. I prolly should have made that optional.
any more thoughts on how X2V should know to not look inside any nested hCards? that's not in any of the specs, yet, is it?
DanC: nifty stuff
DanC: you should hook it up to a google map too
thanks, bewest
google map... yes, I'm working on that too: http://dm93.org/2006geo/where.html
yeah... it'd be cool to hook up the flight data to the map
openrico was developed by sabre systems
what I want to do is combine hCalendar and hCard... have a time-line slider, and when you slide it, the google map shows where I'll be at that time
it's not very good though
well, their livegrid component is good
oh nifty
hrm
nifty
how will you get the slider?
wish real hard into lazyweb ;-)
homebrew javascript magic, yahoo's UI, scriptaculous' UI, XUL?
DanC: is this the kind of stuff you get to do all day long, or do you have other stuff to do?
'course you could use openrico for the slider, too
this is the kind of stuff I do for stress relief. My day job is herding cats, i.e. managing web standards projects. http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
hmm... I should add conversion to UTC time to flightCal.py
hmm... no, that wasn't a mapping to UTC; just a mapping to timezones
erm
are you going to geocode these things?
lat/lon?
to put it on the map
yes; that much is done.
so you don't need a city -> timezone mapping
:)
:)
DanC, regarding: any more thoughts on how X2V should know to not look inside any nested hCards? that's not in any of the specs, yet, is it?
bewest, do you know a good way to map lat/long+localtime to UTC time?
I was using wunderground.com to map airport names to timezones
you already have a mapping of timezone -> UTC offsets?
too late
I was thinking you could define timezones as polygons using lat/lon for points
yes, you could, at least in theory. I just don't know of a good source of such data available today.
me neither :-(
heh... third entry is an IRC log with you talking about it, DanC
;-)
that's one nice thing about working at W3C and such for 10 or 15 years... google thinks everything I say is important ;-)
I feel like ISO should have this
but ISO would charge us for it, and only make it available on dead trees. wikipedia is the new ISO, for my money
is there a fancier term for "time zone"?
more scientific or mathematical
don't think so
re <tantek> I've tested this <tantek> you only come up as a company in Apple's address book if the FN==ORG
is that in the hcard test suite? wanna mail the bits to mf-dev?
sure: http://technorati.com/about/contact.html :)
heh I just noticed: function partyOn()
ok, that's a positive test. a negative test ("only") would be nice too.
interesting... "4 days ago: Added a case when FN and ORG are equal" -- http://hg.microformats.org/x2v
DanC, wouldn't negative tests be all other hCards in the suite?
I was thinking of one with ORG and no FN. but I guess that's not allowed.
correct
[[xfn-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-implementations&diff=0&oldid=5945 * ZachInglis * (+272) XFN Implementations -
hrm I think I found a shapefile
dunno how to read them
I dunno how to read them either, but I'm pretty sure there's perl (ugh) code in CPAN to do it.
it's a solved problem in the open source world I'm pretty sure. google's your friend.
I found a C library already :-)
this should make a good project for tonight
do keep me posted
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