IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:03:24] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:03:25] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  3. [00:08:23] * Tantek (n=Tantek@dsl001-150-100.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  4. [00:19:05] <Tantek> greetings
  5. [00:28:12] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4512 * EranGloben * (+44) formatting.
  6. [00:32:43] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) deleted "mflogbot/": duplicate of /wiki/mflogbot
  7. [00:57:15] * therealadam (n=adam@adsl-65-69-141-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #microformats
  8. [01:12:36] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-9-178.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  9. [01:13:29] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-9-178.bos.east.verizon.net) Quit ()
  10. [01:14:55] * Tantek (n=Tantek@dsl001-150-100.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  11. [01:15:27] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-9-178.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  12. [01:18:50] * therealadam (n=adam@adsl-65-69-141-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) Quit ()
  13. [01:20:13] * limbo_ is now known as limbo_goned
  14. [01:36:38] * Tantek (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  15. [01:37:41] * ChanServ sets mode +o Tantek
  16. [01:40:39] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  17. [01:51:51] * Tantek just hCalendared the BarCamp home page's list of upcoming BarCamps.
  18. [01:51:59] <Tantek> http://barcamp.org/#BarCamps
  19. [01:56:41] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4513 * Tantek * (+143) upcoming BarCamps are marked up with hCalendar
  20. [01:57:27] <Tantek> give it a shot folks
  21. [01:57:46] <Tantek> try out the "Subscribe..." link and let me know if it works on your platform/browser/calendar program of choice.
  22. [02:01:40] <Tantek> KevinMarks, looks like that ORG page still lacks the "Z" or "+0000" to set the timezone offset properly.
  23. [02:20:54] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-119-220.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  24. [02:38:39] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #Microformats
  25. [02:40:06] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has left #Microformats
  26. [02:45:54] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  27. [02:46:03] * LTjake_ (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  28. [02:46:06] * LTjake_ is now known as LTjake
  29. [03:02:36] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  30. [03:08:35] <KevinMarks> yes, I pinged suw, but it's night there now
  31. [03:10:08] <KevinMarks> the name comes out crappy
  32. [03:10:17] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) has joined #microformats
  33. [03:11:23] <KevinMarks> (on the barcamp one)
  34. [03:12:06] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  35. [03:12:17] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  36. [03:12:59] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) Quit (Client Quit)
  37. [03:20:50] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  38. [03:23:56] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  39. [03:23:56] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  40. [03:23:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  41. [03:30:47] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  42. [03:33:52] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  43. [03:36:12] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  44. [04:10:32] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  45. [04:10:55] <Tantek> KevinMarks - the name is taken directly from the <title> of the page
  46. [04:11:25] <KevinMarks> yes; is there a way to override?
  47. [04:11:30] <Tantek> thus, perhaps suggest to the pbwiki guys to allow better naming
  48. [04:11:38] <Tantek> of pages
  49. [04:12:26] <Tantek> BTW, so far, PBWiki is the *only* wiki which has let me enter an arbitrary <a href> and have it work. Better than MoinMoin, kwiki, or even MediaWiki.
  50. [04:12:38] <Tantek> we've definitely got a contender here folks.
  51. [04:13:27] <KevinMarks> you mean with rel's?
  52. [04:13:30] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-119-220.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  53. [04:19:36] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4514 * Tantek * (+431) Lazyweb -
  54. [04:20:04] <Tantek> KevinMarks, with rel, class, style, title, etc.
  55. [04:25:01] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-9-178.bos.east.verizon.net) Quit ()
  56. [04:36:49] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  57. [04:38:24] * pnhChris wonders if instiki is the only one out there that uses textile syntax
  58. [04:51:33] <mfbot> [[use]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=use&diff=0&oldid=4515 * MarkRickerby * (-11) flow of text, introduction
  59. [04:57:26] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.7/20051010]")
  60. [05:56:10] <Frederic> Hello
  61. [05:59:36] <Snowden> heya
  62. [06:00:04] <Snowden> I'm a microformat newbie but they sound interesting
  63. [06:00:18] <Snowden> :P
  64. [06:02:45] <Tantek> welcome Snowden!
  65. [06:05:26] <Frederic> Hello Snowden, Tantek
  66. [06:24:45] <Snowden> hi
  67. [06:25:08] <Snowden> so where can i go to find more about browser integration and microformats...
  68. [06:25:26] <Snowden> like extensions or something even more
  69. [06:27:35] <Snowden> ...would it be a good idea to have tighter browser integration than what an extension can offer? what for, I don't really know myself
  70. [06:28:30] <Tantek> you may want to take a look at Flock (http://flock.com) which has some integrated microformats support, and much more in progress.
  71. [06:30:07] <Snowden> thanks
  72. [07:10:14] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  73. [07:13:41] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  74. [07:48:46] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ()
  75. [08:52:29] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  76. [09:03:21] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  77. [09:03:21] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  78. [09:34:04] * Tantek (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  79. [09:41:59] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  80. [10:54:15] * danja (i=DannyAye@host158-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  81. [12:49:12] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  82. [12:58:35] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  83. [13:12:24] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4516 * HOWCOME * (+34) Contributors -
  84. [13:15:05] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4517 * HOWCOME * (+18) Proposals -
  85. [13:25:55] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) has joined #microformats
  86. [13:27:41] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4518 * HOWCOME * (+389) Background -
  87. [13:28:12] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4519 * HOWCOME * (+0) Background -
  88. [13:29:33] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4520 * HOWCOME * (+1) Background -
  89. [13:31:24] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  90. [13:42:22] <trovster> Anyone know what the <id> is on the <entry> on Atom?
  91. [13:43:03] <jcgregorio> a universally unique id for that entry
  92. [13:43:14] <jcgregorio> in the form of a URI
  93. [13:52:30] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4521 * HOWCOME * (+726) Background -
  94. [13:53:21] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4522 * HOWCOME * (+11) Parts of a book -
  95. [13:54:02] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4523 * HOWCOME * (+11) Parts of a book -
  96. [13:55:33] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4524 * HOWCOME * (+74) Parts of a book -
  97. [14:41:24] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  98. [14:41:28] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  99. [14:43:57] * bewest|work (n=bewest@c-69-138-89-146.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  100. [15:04:51] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4525 * HOWCOME * (+1620) Parts of a book -
  101. [15:07:00] * _psychic_ (n=john@128.187.156.44) has joined #microformats
  102. [15:10:36] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
  103. [15:42:37] * _psychic_ (n=john@128.187.156.44) Quit ()
  104. [16:04:29] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  105. [16:05:09] * therealadam (n=adam@adsl-65-69-141-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #microformats
  106. [16:09:03] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4526 * HOWCOME * (+661) Parts of a book -
  107. [16:12:55] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4527 * HOWCOME * (+176) Parts of a book -
  108. [16:13:06] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4528 * HOWCOME * (+5) Parts of a book -
  109. [16:14:57] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4529 * HOWCOME * (+52) Parts of a book -
  110. [16:15:24] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2516P022.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  111. [16:15:24] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  112. [16:15:28] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4530 * HOWCOME * (-2) Parts of a book -
  113. [16:22:14] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4531 * HOWCOME * (+66) Parts of a book -
  114. [16:26:35] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4532 * HOWCOME * (+454) Parts of a book -
  115. [16:27:06] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4533 * HOWCOME * (+8) Parts of a book -
  116. [16:27:27] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4534 * HOWCOME * (-2) Parts of a book -
  117. [16:30:55] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  118. [16:41:28] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4535 * HOWCOME * (+1168) Parts of a book -
  119. [16:46:29] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4536 * HOWCOME * (+5) Parts of a book -
  120. [16:51:56] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4537 * HOWCOME * (+398) Background -
  121. [16:53:07] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4538 * HOWCOME * (+31) Are there enough sections? -
  122. [16:57:48] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  123. [17:01:15] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  124. [17:01:15] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  125. [17:01:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  126. [17:06:13] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  127. [17:11:10] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  128. [17:11:10] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
  129. [17:11:51] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  130. [17:12:03] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  131. [17:12:14] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  132. [17:12:58] <mfbot> [[citation-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-formats&diff=0&oldid=4539 * Ross Singer * (+49) Example -
  133. [17:14:05] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  134. [17:14:33] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  135. [17:14:48] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
  136. [17:15:06] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  137. [17:17:44] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  138. [17:17:44] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  139. [17:20:14] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4540 * HOWCOME * (+35) Comparison with DocBook -
  140. [17:20:36] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  141. [17:20:54] <tantek> nice. Håkon is editing the wiki.
  142. [17:21:00] <mfbot> [[OpenURL 1.0 (Z39.88)]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/OpenURL_1.0_%28Z39.88%29 * Ross Singer * (+2128)
  143. [17:21:43] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  144. [17:22:21] <mfbot> [[OpenURL 1.0 (Z39.88)]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=OpenURL_1.0_%28Z39.88%29&diff=0&oldid=4541 * Ross Singer * (+37)
  145. [17:30:57] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@adsl-68-127-28-103.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  146. [17:31:23] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  147. [17:31:36] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  148. [17:33:05] * RobertBachmann wonders why googlebot is hiting my site like a madman
  149. [17:37:23] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4542 * HOWCOME * (+376) Comparison with DocBook -
  150. [17:37:54] <RobertBachmann> I thougth google would honour rel="nofollow"
  151. [17:40:09] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4543 * HOWCOME * (+110) Parts of a book -
  152. [17:41:36] <tantek> robert, nofollow only affects a particular path
  153. [17:41:47] <tantek> if there is a non-nofollow link to your site, google will still find it
  154. [17:41:55] <tantek> you want robots.txt if you want to block robots
  155. [17:42:04] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  156. [17:44:39] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  157. [17:44:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  158. [17:49:05] * limbo_goned is now known as limbo_
  159. [17:49:10] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4544 * HOWCOME * (+39) Parts of a book -
  160. [17:53:46] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4545 * HOWCOME * (+1299) Comparison with DocBook -
  161. [17:59:12] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4546 * HOWCOME * (+565) Comparison with DocBook -
  162. [18:04:29] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4547 * HOWCOME * (+563) Are there enough sections? -
  163. [18:04:33] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2516P022.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  164. [18:07:02] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  165. [18:08:16] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.76.152.bbplus.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  166. [18:10:42] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  167. [18:16:49] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@CAES-THREE-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) has joined #microformats
  168. [18:16:49] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  169. [18:29:12] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  170. [18:31:13] * _psychic_ (n=john@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  171. [18:35:48] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  172. [18:43:54] * therealadam (n=adam@adsl-65-69-141-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  173. [18:45:27] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  174. [18:45:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  175. [18:45:27] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  176. [18:48:00] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  177. [18:48:00] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  178. [18:48:15] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  179. [19:01:25] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2452P005.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  180. [19:01:25] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  181. [19:02:15] <kingryan> hi RobertBachmann
  182. [19:02:52] <RobertBachmann> hi ryan
  183. [19:03:33] <kingryan> eh, why'd we get a page just for OpenURL?
  184. [19:03:36] <kingryan> (http://microformats.org/wiki/OpenURL_1.0_%28Z39.88%29)
  185. [19:04:24] <kingryan> tantek?
  186. [19:10:21] <kingryan> is ross singer around?
  187. [19:13:13] <LTjake> yes
  188. [19:13:17] <LTjake> sec
  189. [19:15:02] <mfbot> [[OpenURL 1.0 (Z39.88)]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=OpenURL_1.0_%28Z39.88%29&diff=0&oldid=4548 * RyanKing * (+129)
  190. [19:15:19] * ksclarke (n=ksclarke@ltopsys03.Princeton.EDU) has joined #microformats
  191. [19:16:13] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=4549 * RyanKing * (+67) added a note about line breaks in code
  192. [19:20:44] <mfbot> [[citation-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-formats&diff=0&oldid=4550 * RyanKing * (+374) SRU from the Library of Congress - adding line breaks to pasted code
  193. [19:22:50] <mfbot> [[citation-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-formats&diff=0&oldid=4551 * Ed Summers * (+0) Comparison chart - fixed typo
  194. [19:22:56] <mfbot> [[citation-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-formats&diff=0&oldid=4552 * RyanKing * (+52) Ann Arbor District Library XML feed - cleaning up pasted code
  195. [19:23:47] * rsinger (n=rs375@rsinger.library.gatech.edu) has joined #microformats
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  197. [19:29:16] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-93-45.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
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  199. [19:30:54] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  200. [19:32:38] * ksclarke (n=ksclarke@ltopsys03.Princeton.EDU) has left #microformats
  201. [19:33:37] <rsinger> ?
  202. [19:34:17] <kingryan> hi ross
  203. [19:34:28] <kingryan> I was just wondering why you created a seperate page for openurl
  204. [19:34:29] <rsinger> hi ryan
  205. [19:34:40] <kingryan> rather than putting it in http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-formats ?
  206. [19:34:49] <rsinger> well, the idea was to not further clutter that page
  207. [19:35:04] <rsinger> but... there's no reason why it couldnt go in there
  208. [19:35:29] <kingryan> well, adding more pages is clutter, too :D
  209. [19:35:38] <rsinger> true
  210. [19:35:46] <rsinger> i am not married to another page for it
  211. [19:36:05] <rsinger> and didn't realize that there was any convention
  212. [19:36:07] <rsinger> sorry about that
  213. [19:36:14] * rsinger will move it
  214. [19:36:23] <kingryan> yeah, the conventions aren't entirely spelled out
  215. [19:36:29] <kingryan> we're kinda making them up as we go :D
  216. [19:36:39] <rsinger> my kind of movement
  217. [19:37:00] <rsinger> microformats: groping our way towards excellence!
  218. [19:37:06] <kingryan> we just gotta remember to write stuff down
  219. [19:37:28] <kingryan> I prefer, microformats: stumbling uphill
  220. [19:37:32] <tantek> rsinger, more like evolving our way, but yeah :)
  221. [19:37:56] <tantek> also, we do have pretty solid URL naming principles, right Ryan?
  222. [19:38:10] * tantek hates underscores and parantheses in URLs
  223. [19:38:22] <kingryan> well, we've got http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-conventions
  224. [19:38:29] <tantek> that's for properties
  225. [19:38:36] <tantek> i thought we had something in how to play
  226. [19:38:39] <kingryan> uh no
  227. [19:38:40] <tantek> as far as naming wiki pages
  228. [19:38:48] <kingryan> that's for wiki pages
  229. [19:38:54] <tantek> all lowercase, dashes to separate pages etc.
  230. [19:39:11] <kingryan> that's what http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-conventions says
  231. [19:39:12] <tantek> oh
  232. [19:39:24] * tantek mixed up naming-conventions and naming-principles in his head.
  233. [19:39:35] <kingryan> but our instructions on what pages to create, etc. is all spread out
  234. [19:39:48] <rsinger> yeah, well, all of my travails with the wiki this morning were before i drank my coffee
  235. [19:39:49] <tantek> process is where to start for that
  236. [19:40:01] <rsinger> (not that i would have RTFM in all likelihood, anyway)
  237. [19:40:04] <tantek> rsinger, don't get us wrong, we very much appreciate the help and contributions
  238. [19:40:23] <rsinger> tantek: no wrong taken
  239. [19:40:27] <tantek> we're just trying to keep things as neat as we can while rapidly evolving forward :)
  240. [19:40:50] <rsinger> maybe up there i need to s/microformats:/rsinger:/
  241. [19:41:57] <mfbot> [[naming-conventions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=naming-conventions&diff=0&oldid=4553 * Tantek * (+192)
  242. [19:42:03] <mfbot> [[naming-conventions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=naming-conventions&diff=0&oldid=4554 * Tantek * (+0)
  243. [19:42:19] <mfbot> [[citation-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-formats&diff=0&oldid=4555 * Ross Singer * (+2118) Example -
  244. [19:42:45] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  245. [19:42:48] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  246. [19:42:50] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4556 * RyanKing * (+61) Analysis -
  247. [19:43:24] <rsinger> ok, gaffe fixed
  248. [19:44:06] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4557 * RyanKing * (+88) Resume Examples -
  249. [19:44:32] <mfbot> [[book-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-examples&diff=0&oldid=4558 * MarkPilgrim * (+240) additional links and notes about MarkPilgrim books
  250. [19:45:51] <kingryan> thanks rsinger
  251. [19:47:41] <rsinger> kingryan: no problem -- sorry about that
  252. [19:48:11] * tantek wonders if markp uses some sort of ego-filtering on mailing lists he is subscribed to to take quick action - that was an incredibly fast response after I *just* sent the email about the book microformat efforts.
  253. [19:48:54] <mfbot> [[naming-conventions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=naming-conventions&diff=0&oldid=4559 * Tantek * (+11)
  254. [19:51:21] * kingryan doesn't see markp's email yet
  255. [19:52:16] * tantek points at the mfbot entry about book-examples a few lines up
  256. [19:53:01] <kingryan> oh, gotcha
  257. [19:53:04] <tantek> Now that's what I call an ideal email response. Direct action on the wiki, no follow-up email needed. All signal, no noise.
  258. [19:53:30] <kingryan> yeah
  259. [19:54:58] <kingryan> btw, tantek, I got an extension on the proposal for the slac conference
  260. [19:56:47] <tantek> sweet
  261. [19:57:04] <kingryan> are you available for the conf, tantek?
  262. [19:57:12] <tantek> is the extension for folks in general? i.e. could you post the CFP to the discuss list?
  263. [19:57:21] <kingryan> no, just for me :D
  264. [19:57:36] <kingryan> 'cause, you know, my advisor is the conf chair
  265. [19:57:36] <tantek> wow: http://blog.usweb.com/archives/how-microformats-affect-search-engine-optimization-seo
  266. [19:59:20] <tantek> XOXO for Ruby: http://chneukirchen.org/blog/archive/2006/01/xoxo-rb-0-1-released.html
  267. [20:03:40] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4560 * RyanKing * (+0) Resume Examples - just cleaning up some style
  268. [20:05:52] * tara_ (n=tara@h-66-134-141-205.snvacaid.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  269. [20:08:16] <mfbot> [[xoxo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=4561 * Tantek * (+188) Implementations -
  270. [20:12:17] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4562 * Tantek * (+254) Implementations -
  271. [20:12:28] <mfbot> [[geo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=4563 * Tantek * (+254) Implementations -
  272. [20:13:16] * tantek is having trouble keeping up with the rate of new microformats applications/web services being developed and shipped.
  273. [20:14:09] <_psychic_> pleasant dilemna?
  274. [20:14:17] <tantek> yes, a very good problem to have
  275. [20:14:32] <_psychic_> well, its your own fault ;)
  276. [20:14:57] <tantek> thanks _psychic_ :)
  277. [20:15:39] <tantek> mine and everyone else's that has been working hard on documenting microformats
  278. [20:16:05] <kingryan> of course, tantek, its your fault that others are working on documenting microformats, too
  279. [20:16:22] <kingryan> :D
  280. [20:16:45] * tantek thanks kingryan for all his hard work. ;)
  281. [20:18:59] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4564 * Tantek * (+245) New Examples -
  282. [20:20:15] <mfbot> [[introduction]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=introduction&diff=0&oldid=4565 * Tantek * (+195) See Also -
  283. [20:21:01] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4566 * Tantek * (+217) Further Reading -
  284. [20:30:03] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4567 * RyanKing * (+3526) Aggregate Analysis - added an aggregate analysis table
  285. [20:31:33] * cee-dub is now known as c-ichiban
  286. [20:31:54] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4568 * RyanKing * (-3) Aggregate Analysis - added some more headers to table
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  289. [20:34:20] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4569 * RyanKing * (-33) Aggregate Analysis - style cleanup
  290. [20:35:01] * tara_ichiban is now known as tarichibanko
  291. [20:38:01] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4570 * RyanKing * (-28) Aggregate Analysis - merged "employment" and "professional experience"
  292. [20:40:02] * bluesmoon (n=bluesmoo@nat-fw.bangalore.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  293. [20:40:02] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
  294. [20:40:38] * tarichibanko is now known as tara_
  295. [20:43:37] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4571 * RyanKing * (-1) Overall implied schema - typo
  296. [20:43:58] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4572 * RyanKing * (-1) Aggregate Analysis - same typo again
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  298. [20:58:35] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4573 * RyanKing * (+1016) Examples Analysis - added some analysis
  299. [21:05:49] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  300. [21:17:22] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  301. [21:21:29] <bkdelong> Hey kingryan - has anyone done anything with a FAQ implementation of XOXO?
  302. [21:26:17] <bkdelong> Woah...tough room
  303. [21:29:15] <KevinMarks> how do you mean FAQ implementation?
  304. [21:29:27] <KevinMarks> oh, FAQ in a XOXO list?
  305. [21:31:21] <bkdelong> We discussed posting examples of marking up a FAQ in XOXO and posting it to the Wiki
  306. [21:31:57] * therealadam (n=adam@adsl-65-71-92-110.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #microformats
  307. [21:32:10] <bkdelong> basically we want to associate a question with it's related answer so someone could essentially create an app that could turn the Web into one giant knowledge base :)
  308. [21:35:21] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.3 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  309. [21:45:56] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2452P005.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("Leaving")
  310. [21:57:00] * _psychic1 (n=john@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  311. [22:04:58] * rsinger (n=rs375@rsinger.library.gatech.edu) has left #microformats
  312. [22:05:19] <kingryan> hey bkdelong
  313. [22:05:37] <kingryan> FAQs would probably be a good use of xoxo
  314. [22:06:23] <kingryan> it would be worth investigating examples, though
  315. [22:07:07] <DanC> I can't seem to get my head around xoxo; it's just XHTML list markup, no? are there tools other than web browsers that do something with XOXO?
  316. [22:09:07] <DanC> ooh! "XOXO to have twiddlable triangles for nested lists that respect the compact attribute as well." I want that for my GTD projects list.
  317. [22:09:22] * _psychic_ (n=john@71.32.228.156) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  318. [22:09:34] * tara_brb (n=tara@h-66-134-141-205.snvacaid.covad.net) Quit ()
  319. [22:11:09] * _psychic1 is now known as _psychic_
  320. [22:12:21] * bluesmoon (n=bluesmoo@nat-fw.bangalore.corp.yahoo.com) Quit ("Leaving")
  321. [22:17:13] <DanC> ok, I think I get XOXO now; it's a stripped down profile of XHTML, to show that OPML has no real reason to exist
  322. [22:17:47] <DanC> is OPML just a nested list of strings?
  323. [22:18:38] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4574 * RyanKing * (+123) Examples Analysis -
  324. [22:18:54] <DanC> goodnes... "Information about OPML items cannot itself be hierarchically marked up (ironically), due to the use of attributes to store that information." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPML
  325. [22:19:10] <kingryan> danc, yes it is a stripped down version of html, specifically for outlines
  326. [22:19:20] <kingryan> yeah, DanC, OPML's a mess
  327. [22:19:38] <kingryan> XOXO is basically the lists module from XHTML modularization
  328. [22:19:47] <DanC> whee! "Due to the arbitrary nature of the "type" attribute, and the acceptance of arbitrary attributes on "outline" elements, interoperability of OPML documents relies almost entirely on the undocumented conventions of content producers."
  329. [22:19:52] <kingryan> with a few more constraints (ie, one dd per dt)
  330. [22:20:23] * kingryan avoids making personal remarks about the creator of OPML
  331. [22:20:29] <DanC> where is dl/dt/dd discussed in http://www.microformats.org/wiki/xoxo ? I'm having trouble finding it
  332. [22:20:58] <limbo_> wikipedia's OPML article is slightly biased.
  333. [22:21:14] <limbo_> not that i'm protecting OPML
  334. [22:21:19] <kingryan> I wonder why, limbo_ :D
  335. [22:21:27] <limbo_> but it's gonna be an uphill fight to replace it
  336. [22:21:35] <kingryan> eh, DanC, not sure, let me find it
  337. [22:21:46] <limbo_> kingryan, i'm sure i wouldnt know anything about people who edit wikipedia articles anonymously ;)
  338. [22:21:59] <DanC> replace it? I have never encountered OPML in practice, so it's trivial to replace in my life.
  339. [22:22:00] <kingryan> nor would I
  340. [22:22:13] <limbo_> DanC, i mean in public use
  341. [22:22:22] <limbo_> plenty of RSS readers support opml
  342. [22:22:26] <kingryan> the only thing about OPML is that many feed aggregators support it for subscription lists
  343. [22:22:47] <limbo_> and it's gaining new uses constantly
  344. [22:22:56] <limbo_> which is a shame. cause it's crap.
  345. [22:23:41] <DanC> ah... now OPML rings a bell... it's relevant to my life because it's what bloglines supports. (though I have, to date, not bothered to back up my bloglines subscriptions)
  346. [22:24:08] <limbo_> yep
  347. [22:24:12] <limbo_> export/import
  348. [22:24:19] <limbo_> and maybe reading lists as well
  349. [22:24:33] <DanC> ok, now I care about opml2xoxo.xsl and vice versa
  350. [22:24:49] <DanC> cuz I trust XHTML for archival storage of my knowledge, but not random XML formats
  351. [22:25:10] <kingryan> uh, OPML's not really xml
  352. [22:25:11] * DanC wonders what opml2xoxo.xsl does with the mysterious "type" attribute...
  353. [22:25:33] <DanC> is it effectively defined by some CPAN module?
  354. [22:25:43] <limbo_> i think xoxo2opml is a good way to get more people to publish XOXO
  355. [22:26:43] <limbo_> publish in something that makes sense and do just-in-time conversion to use with tools that support opml
  356. [22:26:50] <kingryan> DanC, I can't find the documentation about "one dd per dl"
  357. [22:26:50] * DanC found the bit about xoxo and os x property lists to be helpful to understanding, if not completely practical in real life
  358. [22:27:30] <kingryan> the plist thing is useful for ernie
  359. [22:28:06] <kingryan> who's done a xoxo -> plist -> xoxo demo
  360. [22:30:14] <DanC> the plist thing is cited from http://www.microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Implementations
  361. [22:30:31] <DanC> oh. that wasn't a question.
  362. [22:31:50] <DanC> bummer that the apple plist dict format has the same bug as HTML's dt/dd ; it's a pain that there isn't one element that contains both the dt and the dd. or the dd should be inside the dt
  363. [22:32:40] <kingryan> yeah, that's quite annoying
  364. [22:33:08] <DanC> <windowTop>? I wonder what opml2xoxo does with that
  365. [22:34:06] <DanC> it seems to skip the head altogether
  366. [22:46:49] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4575 * RyanKing * (+734)
  367. [22:48:38] * drumm (n=drumm@71.198.78.249) has left #microformats
  368. [22:50:11] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4576 * RyanKing * (-70) Other Thoughts About Resumé Formats - removing duplicate link
  369. [22:55:57] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4577 * RyanKing * (-88) Other Thoughts About Resumé Formats -
  370. [22:57:38] * DanC has a resume project on his todo list... considers swapping it in while RyanKing is on a nearby wavelength...
  371. [22:58:05] <kingryan> :D
  372. [22:58:09] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@CAES-THREE-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
  373. [22:58:11] <kingryan> what's the project?
  374. [22:58:57] <DanC> my CV. specifically, MIT's request to have it contain certain info.
  375. [22:59:09] <DanC> which they specify by way of a ms word template. :-/
  376. [23:00:01] <kingryan> ouch
  377. [23:00:50] <DanC> aha... http://groups.csail.mit.edu/hq/personnel/facultyrecord/
  378. [23:02:15] <DanC> I added semantic markup to http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/misc/vita a long time ago, but haven't migrated to hCard etc. yet
  379. [23:03:38] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4578 * RyanKing * (-1) left off for now = -
  380. [23:03:57] <DanC> does anybody here maintain a gtd-style projects list, by chance?
  381. [23:04:03] <kingryan> I do
  382. [23:04:06] <kingryan> in plain text
  383. [23:04:14] <kingryan> actually markdown
  384. [23:04:34] * kingryan needs to learn latex
  385. [23:05:56] <DanC> I'm trying hard to use XHTML as a gateway to latex. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/16
  386. [23:06:19] <tantek> DanC, check out VTODO for todo items
  387. [23:06:25] <kingryan> very nice
  388. [23:06:37] <tantek> (which you can use because VTODO is part of RFC2445 which hCalendar references :) )
  389. [23:07:23] <DanC> well, it's not cost-effective for me to add class="vtodo" to all my gtd items by hand. if there were a handy css/js clickey thingy, I might. (but then... how would I save it?)
  390. [23:07:41] <tantek> oh you mean like an hToDo creator?
  391. [23:07:50] <DanC> and maintainer
  392. [23:08:20] <DanC> hmm... I'm not sure a gtd:project is a vcalendar:vtodo. sorta. hm.
  393. [23:09:22] * DanC wonders how tantek got into the channel when I wasn't looking
  394. [23:09:43] * KentBye (n=chatzill@pool-71-241-192-163.port.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  395. [23:11:02] <edsu> DanC: is your microformat for bibliography stuff available as an example somewhere? does it derive from BibTeX?
  396. [23:11:28] <tantek> microformat for bibliography stuff? we're working on that with the citation work
  397. [23:11:41] <DanC> yes, derives from bibtex. http://www.w3.org/2004/04/xhlt91/ <- http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/16
  398. [23:11:49] <edsu> well perhaps i should have said microfauxmat :)
  399. [23:12:09] <tantek> take a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/citation to start with
  400. [23:12:14] <edsu> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/16 mentions "My work includes a microformat for bibliography stuff"
  401. [23:12:19] * danja (i=DannyAye@host158-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ("Ciao!")
  402. [23:12:24] <edsu> tantek: i have, in fact i wrote some of it :)
  403. [23:12:45] * _psychic1 (n=john@71.32.228.156) has joined #microformats
  404. [23:13:08] <edsu> DanC: thanks
  405. [23:13:13] <DanC> the most serious application of my bib microformat was http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Diff , which we went to the trouble to format latex-style for the conference ...http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/lncs04/Diff.pdf
  406. [23:13:13] * edsu makes note to add to the examples
  407. [23:13:22] <DanC> ... but it didn't get accepted.
  408. [23:13:55] <DanC> you can see http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/lncs04/Diffbib.bib , though
  409. [23:14:07] * KentBye (n=chatzill@pool-71-241-192-163.port.east.verizon.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
  410. [23:15:09] * tantek thanks edsu for his work on citation :)
  411. [23:15:23] <edsu> it would be so nice to just use BibTeX and call it a day [sigh]
  412. [23:15:37] <edsu> i know it's not that easy, but one can dream right?
  413. [23:16:26] <tantek> currently there is more bias for OpenURL I think
  414. [23:16:51] * DanC didn't realize OpenURL included a citation format
  415. [23:17:09] <edsu> tantek: your posting about subverting the normal process for hakon made me chuckle today -- i totally understand though
  416. [23:17:30] <DanC> pointer, edsu?
  417. [23:17:57] <DanC> well, there's certainly an argument to "just use BibTeX" in the sense that hCard just uses vcard
  418. [23:18:04] <edsu> DanC: yeah, openurl allows you to serialize citations as URLs and XML
  419. [23:18:44] <edsu> DanC: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-January/002870.html
  420. [23:18:47] <DanC> the bibtex specs are a little fuzzy around the edges, but there's a *lot* of bibtex wetware and data out there, and a non-trivial amount of software too
  421. [23:19:38] <edsu> yeah, i agree -- openurl is pretty heaviliy used in library academia for access to licensed materials -- so that's why it has some traction there
  422. [23:19:56] <edsu> s/heaviliy/heavily/
  423. [23:20:27] <DanC> I think hakon is the only guy I know who has written a whole book using HTML+CSS (with Bert).
  424. [23:21:09] <tantek> OpenURL *is* a citation format
  425. [23:21:32] <DanC> silly name for one
  426. [23:21:35] <edsu> tantek: yeah, it has extra stuff for bundling information about service providers
  427. [23:21:44] <edsu> it is a very silly name really
  428. [23:21:52] <tantek> edus, re: subverting the normal process for Håkon, it's less about subverting, and more about tolerating the work happening a bit out of order
  429. [23:21:55] * DanC follows nose thru 2870 and hits http://www.alistapart.com/articles/boom ... small world
  430. [23:21:56] <edsu> then again BibTeX .... ahem
  431. [23:22:21] <tantek> edsu, yes, "OpenURL" is a terrible name. I mean, URLs *are* open right?
  432. [23:22:38] <edsu> yeah, i've never understood the naming
  433. [23:23:11] <edsu> i guess the problem that openurl solves is a bunch of vendors all having differnt URLs for fetching content
  434. [23:23:22] <edsu> and having to write systems to talk to all of them
  435. [23:23:27] <DanC> ok, so naming can be a subtle art, but that one is just really, really horrible. Right up there with DOM. Is there some "naming and marketing for geeks 101" book that I can simply require everyone to read?
  436. [23:23:27] <edsu> just to get an article
  437. [23:24:02] * _psychic_ (n=john@71.32.228.156) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  438. [23:24:10] <tantek> DanC, well, I've written this up which may be of some help: http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles
  439. [23:24:11] <kingryan> DanC, yeah, once you write the book
  440. [23:24:30] <DanC> (at least DOM isn't so actively misleading as OpenURL)
  441. [23:24:42] <kingryan> someone once said, "there's two hard problems in Computer Science: naming things and cache invalidation"
  442. [23:25:21] <kingryan> I think I agree with whoever said that
  443. [23:25:46] <DanC> well, http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles is nice, but it's really just "don't take the NIH attitude. great engineers steal". I mean something that would help with choosing names like "microformats"
  444. [23:26:07] <DanC> that's a hamilton-ism, no?
  445. [23:26:08] <edsu> DanC: yeah, honestly i don't dislike DOM at all
  446. [23:26:24] <tantek> DanC, are you saying you do or don't like "microformats" as a name?
  447. [23:26:28] <DanC> do like
  448. [23:26:33] <tantek> ah cool
  449. [23:26:44] <DanC> but you didn't use naming-principles to come up with it
  450. [23:26:48] <tantek> well, hmm... it was the best candidate out of several that I came up with at the time
  451. [23:27:00] <tantek> another one was "lowercase semantic web"
  452. [23:27:35] <tantek> microformats made sense because we were working on formats, and we wanted the information about the formats themselves to be as minimal as possible, thus micro
  453. [23:27:42] <edsu> both are really good names, imho
  454. [23:27:47] <DanC> phpht. not Hamilton. Karlton.
  455. [23:28:08] <tantek> also, back in 2003-2004, there was a lot of buzz around "microcontent", which I thought was one of the more meaningless terms I had seen invented.
  456. [23:28:33] <DanC> http://karlton.hamilton.com/quotes/
  457. [23:28:55] <tantek> I concluded that any such "microcontent" actually first required "microformats" for them to be written in
  458. [23:29:11] * _psychic1 is now known as _psychic_
  459. [23:29:54] * _psychic_ wonders what a nanoformat might look like ;)
  460. [23:29:54] <DanC> clearly there's a nice story behind the name "microformats"... but ... is there any science to it? or is good marketing==luck?
  461. [23:30:17] <tantek> a bit of say what you mean
  462. [23:30:22] <DanC> science in the sense of "read this before you do that again, OpenURL folk"
  463. [23:31:28] <tantek> don't just sling buzzwords together
  464. [23:31:41] <edsu> DanC: awww, next thing you're going to be telling Knuth to capitalize properly -- jeez
  465. [23:31:56] <edsu> :-)
  466. [23:32:02] <DanC> the only scientific principle I have learned about marketing is: be out among the people. Watch their face when you try the name out. Listen. Say it out loud; see if it sounds good. See if other people pick up on the name when you introduce it.
  467. [23:32:58] <edsu> it's all about the focus group :)
  468. [23:33:13] <DanC> I prefer to start in the bar, but yeah.
  469. [23:33:14] <edsu> and how much free stuff you give them...
  470. [23:34:09] <edsu> the names get better initially as the alcohol intake increases but quickly tapers off as intake approaches infinity
  471. [23:34:24] <DanC> wow... no wikipedia entry for karlton. crime.
  472. [23:34:40] <tantek> DanC, you know what to do :)
  473. [23:34:50] <edsu> heheh
  474. [23:35:09] <DanC> well, 1st a moment to mull over what I wrote when I heard he passed. http://karlton.hamilton.com/showmsg.cgi?119
  475. [23:37:56] <edsu> "F**k Notepad!" indeed
  476. [23:38:30] <DanC> meanwhile, we continue to care about people typing the markup by hand, to some extent, don't we?
  477. [23:39:42] <edsu> yeah, i mean look at the horror that is an openurl url :)
  478. [23:39:48] <DanC> indeed, google confirms that the naming/cache thing is a Karltonism.
  479. [23:40:02] <DanC> (via tim bray)
  480. [23:40:19] * cee-dub-ichibot (n=cee-dub@adsl-71-132-1-222.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  481. [23:41:02] <kingryan> danc, yeah we care about writing markup by hand
  482. [23:41:10] <kingryan> 'cause, well, people write markup by hand
  483. [23:41:32] <kingryan> even if it is just designers and toolmakers
  484. [23:41:46] <DanC> yup; "view source" is an important deployment vector
  485. [23:41:54] <edsu> and people writing blog posts :)
  486. [23:43:10] * therealadam (n=adam@adsl-65-71-92-110.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) Quit ()
  487. [23:43:28] <kingryan> "view source" is an important education vector
  488. [23:43:43] <kingryan> I know that's how I learned html, css and javascript
  489. [23:44:39] <tantek> yes, I'm convinced that "view source" is still the dominant learning mechanism on the Web
  490. [23:46:40] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4579 * RyanKing * (+1220) added strawman proposal
  491. [23:47:33] <edsu> was mosaic the first browser to have view-souce built in?
  492. [23:47:43] <edsu> erm, source
  493. [23:48:48] <DanC> I wonder if the slac thing... midaswww... had it... probably not before mosaic
  494. [23:53:51] <mfbot> [[book-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-examples&diff=0&oldid=4580 * RyanKing * (+84) Examples - added art of war from project gutenberg
  495. [23:58:11] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")

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